No More Messiahs! Jesus PBUH will NOT be returning

[soleil10]

Originally Posted by c0de

So according to the Quran:Jesus PBUH is not returning.
No one can live in heaven.
And the ascension was a vision

C0de, I believe Jesus was crucified. Because he was rejected by the prepared people and nation of his time, Satan could killed his body but Jesus was victorious spiritually and went to paradise.

He came to establish physically the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Since his mission is not completed, someone will be anointed by Jesus to complete it. That is the way I understand what is referred to as his second coming.

I woud like to ask you what is in your opinion the reason and purpose God created the world and human beings ?

[c0de]

Originally Posted by soleil10

Can you give me references to verses in the Koran that support "loving your enemy". I can go and look myself. You do not have to type them.
I heard recently that one of the son of the Hamas leader converted to Xstianity because he had never heard of the concept of "loving your enemy"

Hey Soleil,

There are many verses which show that even though God has allowed
for a man to ask for repayment for any wrong done to him, forgiveness
is always better then seeking revenge. I know of a story behind one such
verse and I will give you that one as an example.

This verse was revealed with regards to an incident in which some
people spread false rumors about Abu Bakr Siddiq's (ra) daughter, who
was also the Prophet's wife. The rumor they spread was of adultery
and this was a very serious offense. When the charges were cleared,
it was found out that one of the men who spread the false rumors was
also someone who used to take regular charity from Abu Bakr. Upon
discovering this, Abu Bakr (ra) swore that he would never give charity
to such a man again. It was concerning this anger of Abu Bakr with
someone who had done a great wrong to his daughter, and the Prophet's
wife that the following verse was revealed:

“Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve
by oath against helping their kinsmen, those in want and those who migrated in the
path of Allah. Let them forgive and overlook. Do you not wish that Allah should
forgive you? Indeed Allah is oft-Forgiving, most Merciful.” 24:22

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by c0de

@ TK
So anyone who is not stated to have died in the Quran
is alive???? The fact is that a person's dying is ordinary.
It does not need to be stated in holy scripture to be proven.
But a person's staying alive for 2000 years in heaven, that
requires a little faith does it not? So because Abdallah says
that this is such an important article of "aqeedah", I ask, where
does it state that Jesus PBUH is alive (in the Quran?)

Well since personally for me, it really doesn`t make a difference what so ever if Jesus were to return or not, because my actions are still the same. I`d rather not be debating about this for long.

But even though Him living in heaven for 2000 years is stretching things a little in practicality, then; I state that you have automatically killed him in your own mind by assuming that he died, when there is a possibility that something we cannot comprehend took place. And this would not be the first time something we cannot comprehend would be documented in verses but I recommend we not assume with regards to this.

Originally Posted by c0de

Part 5: The Meaning of the Myth

.. Maybe this is what we are supposed to do today, avoid participation in all the idolatry of global society. The myths, materialism and deception... all of it, to the best that we can manage. Considering we live 1400 years away from our Prophet... in a world steeped in deceptive values and false idols of every type... This itself, is the greatest struggle... The war within, is the only real "Jihad" left to fight...

Well then, you need to live a monastery life up in the mountains, or a solitary independent life in the wilderness. Which I only agree for those who choose to, and to the point that religious groups should not be involved in politics.

But one thing I don`t like about that idea is for example, buddhists keep it to themselves sometimes, and pursue a relation between themselves and God. Up to a point with regards to seclusion(healthily of course), I think that could be the path. But beyond a certain point I believe that way is extremely self-centered and disgracefully narcissistic to be on a righteous path IMO, and that one must share knowledge and compassion with others. As we have examples set forth by our Prophets. Otherwise you`d already be off the Internet and keeping it to yourself, wouldn`t you?

Just my personal views.
Peace.

TK

[c0de]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

Well since personally for me, it really doesn`t make a difference what so ever if Jesus were to return or not, because my actions are still the same. I`d rather not be debating about this for long.

But even though Him living in heaven for 2000 years is stretching things a little in practicality, then; I state that you have automatically killed him in your own mind by assuming that he died, when there is a possibility that something we cannot comprehend took place. And this would not be the first time something we cannot comprehend would be documented in verses but I recommend we not assume with regards to this.

The only reason I make a big deal about this issue TK is because
I know it to be at the root of a major problem within the Muslim community.
Now obviously this is even hard for most Muslims to relate to, so I do not
blame you for being a little confused...

Well then, you need to live a monastery life up in the mountains, or a solitary independent life in the wilderness. Which I only agree for those who choose to, and to the point that religious groups should not be involved in politics.

Believe me... I have considered this... along with a lot of other
extreme options... The path I am on now, is not going to take me
all that far from this outcome, to tell you the truth...

I heard a really funny quote once though:

"If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your future plans"

Otherwise you`d already be off the Internet and keeping it to yourself, wouldn`t you?

Throughout my quarter century life on this planet so far, I have
noticed that I have drifted in and out of society. When I am inside it,
I am smack in the middle.. but when I withdraw, I am off on mars
somewhere... I feel another withdrawal stage coming on soon...
It has already started actually, but it will really pick up once I
graduate and get mobile... (inshAllah)


NeWayZ... it was nice chatting with you on this thread dude,
your thoughts are always appreciated

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by c0de

@ Abdallah

Salam

Alikum salaam br,

Originally Posted by c0de

You can not use "allusions" to support your point without
first providing a >foundation< for them in the Quran.

what do you mean by 'foundation' br; do you mean a verry clear reference to it?; in that case, where is your proof that there has to be a verry clear reference to any part of the Sunnah in the Quran if it is to be accepted?; I showed you mine where there dont need to be, nor does there need to be any reference at all, other than the indirect one of 59:7 [not sure if this includes essentials of faith too, or obligatory matters without there being some allusion at least to it]

So far you have said that hadiths cannot be trusted to be as authentic as the Quran, but I clearly showed how it infact can due to them being the record of the Sunnah, and due to the Sunnah being a neccessity to be incldued in Allah's promise of preservation of the 'Message', also due to the meticulous science of hadith/preservation methodology, and particularly the mutawaitr one's being beyond a shadow of dout due to the common sense and verry logical 'doubt proof' evidence of the mutawatir; the same evidence which the reliability of the authenticity of the Quran is based on; another thing to take into consideration is that both the Quran and hadith has been preserved by the same people, thus why can one be trusted and the other not?

Thats not to say that every hadith is the same level of authenticity as the Quran; however the sahih one's that do not reach the mutawatir level, are obligatory to believe and put into practice; Al-Qari relates, on this point, the consensus of the Companions and the Successors. rejecting them is a grave transgression (fisq) and is even considered misguided (dâll),

Basically what has been preserved of the Sunnah, be it via written documentations of hadiths, perpetual practice or by memmory [I suppose all those preserved in memmory and perpetual practice have probably? been preserved in writing by now, thus being available in hadith] is a sufficient amount to interpret the whole of the Quran acurately, for that is what has been preserved; the meaning of the Quran, thus allthough we may have some 'weak' catogary hadiths, yet that dont bear upon the meaning of the Quran in a negative way, for there are enough preserved for it not to be effected.

At this point brother, I'd like to ask you a simple question; how can you be sure that we can trust the Quran that it is the same Quran revealed to the Prophet [saw] and not a distorted one?

Originally Posted by c0de

And because your foundation lies outside the Quran,
these "allusions" are not allusions at all, but become
>manipulations<

The foundation allways lies in the Quran br, for there is the verry clear references to the following/obedience of the Sunnah being obligatory for us, and there are the verry clear one's too that the Quran does not need to mention something clearly or at all in order for parts of Islam to be revealed to us via the Sunnah

Originally Posted by c0de

The main part of you belief comes from the Hadith.
And you are using manipulated meanings of some verses
to support those hadiths. This is all that is happening here.

043.061
YUSUFALI: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
PICKTHAL: And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.
SHAKIR: And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.

43:61And he (=Isa) is a source of knowledge of the Hour (the Day of Judgment); so do not be in doubt about it, and follow me. This is the straight way.



in the above verse we can see that Allah is saying something [indicated by the word 'he' and in some translations 'it'; only pikthall says 'there']; is the [sign] of the hour

So how do we determine what that 'something', or who 'he' is?
lets take a look at the preceding verses:

043.057 - 60
YUSUFALI: When (Jesus) the son of Mary is held up as an example, behold, thy people raise a clamour thereat (in ridicule)! And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee, only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people. He was no more than a servant: We granted Our favour to him, and We made him an example to the Children of Israel. And if it were Our Will, We could make angels from amongst you, succeeding each other on the earth.

So the immediate context is talking about jesus br, and then Allah mentions 'something' or an 'he' being a sign of the hour; from the hadiths we know that indeed jesus [pbuh] is a sign of the hour, thus if we put two and two together, it becomes obvious that the reference is to jesus [pbuh]...

The immediate context after that verse is about jesus [pbuh] too:

043.063YUSUFALI: When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

So the whole context there is about Jesus [pbuh] thus this corrobarates further that the thing that will be a 'sign' of the hour, is 'Jesus'

Here is the tafsir regarding it:

And indeed he, that is, Jesus, is a portent of the Hour — [the arrival of] it is known by the sending down of him — so do not doubt it (tamtarunna: the indicative nūn has been omitted for apocopation together with the wāw of the [third] person [plural] on account of two unvowelled consonants coming together) but, say to them: ‘Follow me, in the affirmation of [God’s] Oneness. This, to which I command you, is a straight path’.

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ


(And he (`Isa) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour.) The correct view concerning this phrase is that it refers to his descent before the Day of Resurrection, as Allah says:



(And there is none of the People of the Scripture but must believe in him before his death) (4:159). -- meaning before the death of `Isa, peace be upon him -- .... Mujahid said:...



(And he shall be a sign for (the coming of) the Hour.) means, sign and "One of the signs of the Hour will be the appearance of `Isa son of Maryam before the Day of Resurrection. '' Something similar was also narrated from Abu Hurayrah, Ibn `Abbas, `Abu Al-`Aliyah, Abu Malik, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and others. Many Mutawatir Hadiths report that the Messenger of Allah said that `Isa will descend before the Day of Resurrection as a just ruler and fair judge.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Now in verse 4:159, we can see the immediate context before it and after it is about Jesus [pbuh]:

004.157 - 159
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -
SHAKIR: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

So this context sheds light on as to who'm is being talked about that the people of the scriputre will believe in before his death; note that all three translators there worded it the same as 'There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death' [or basically rendering the same meaning], thus I think this is proof br, about the return of jesus [pbuh] for we know that all or most of the ahlul kithab do not beleive in him [as the Messenger of Allah, and rather they are abusing him by calling him God's son [astagfirullah] so we know in order for all [or most] of the ahlul kithab to believe in him before his death, he has to return...; we also know from the end of time signs that Islam will spread throughout the world with the second advent of Jesus [pbuh], thus this further corrabroates that the people of scripture will convert when they see him...

this verse also corraborates that Jesus [pbuh] did not indeed die, for we know his followers were verry few and the overwhelming vast majority of the ahlul kithab rejected him [as the messenger of God] before Jesus [pbuh] left the earth, thus does it make sense to think that Jesus [pbuh] died when Allah says that they will all believe in him before his deaths?...;

here is the tafsir to this verse:

And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death.) before the death of `Isa, son of Maryam, peace be upon him. Al-`Awfi reported similar from Ibn `Abbas. Abu Malik commented;



(but must believe in him, before his death.) "This occurs after `Isa returns and before he dies, as then, all of the People of the Scriptures will believe in him.''

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

And there is not one of the People of the Scripture but will assuredly believe in him, in Jesus, before his death, ...[it means] before the death of Jesus, after he descends at the approach of the Hour, as is stated in hadīth; and on the Day of Resurrection he, Jesus, will be a witness against them, of what they did when he was sent to them.

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

So as we can see br, rather than 'manipulation' as you claim, they are sincere and proffesional exegesis by the experts of Islam; a basic glance at the context, rules out any 'manipulation' even for a laymen like me br

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by c0de

yea sure.... but thats according to your creed, and your sect.
I do not have a sect. I don't need your aqeedah.
I believe in the Quran and Sunnah and call myself
a Muslim (just a Muslim, not a sunni or shia or whatever).

I understand where your coming from bro, and why 'Sunni' seems like a group of the sectarian type. but hopefully a post from my archives will clarify the truth of the matter; this post originally answered a simmilar suggestion as yours:

I think an explanation of why the Sunni Scholars are so important when it comes to the correct interpretation of Islam is in order here:

At first [after the advent of Islam], believers were simply known as Muslims [one who submits to Allah] or 'Mu'mins' [believers]; within the first few generations of Islam, a minority went astray by forming their own sect [sectarianism is forbidden in Islam, thus whoever breaks away from the original body of muslims or forms their own sect, goes astray], calling themselves the 'shi'a'; I think I heard that the name 'Sunni' was attached to the original body of muslims so as to distinguish them from the shi'a; ...and as time went by, more minorities began to go astray by forming their own sects thus the name 'Sunni' was used to distinguish the original and rightly guided Muslims from all of these deviant sects.

'Sunni' is short for 'ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah' which means, people of the Sunnah [way of the Prophet 'saw'] and the majority; This name was used by the Prophet [saw] himself; when asked by his companion/s, how they are to recognise the rightly guided group of muslims at times of many sects, the prophet [saw] replied that it will be the group who follow the Prophet [saw's] Sunnah [way] and the Sunnah of his companions and they will be the largest group of muslims, thus this name is an apt name to describe the group of muslims who have remained on the Prophetic path.

The four Schools of thought, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali and maaliki, make up the ahlus Sunnah Wal Jammah; these four schools are not different sects but they are united and together they make up one group; their teachings are gathered under four different schools as they differ in a minority of opinions in jursiprudence, as is allowed, and all four schools acknowledge that these are all valid and righteous differences of opinions; all four schools agree upon the points of the Aqeeadah [essentials of faith] in which there is no differences allowed [outside of the Matarudi and Ashari Creed and the consensus], for it is based on decicive/overwhelming evidence which leaves no room for differences, thus in Islam, it is the Aqeedah that unites the Muslims and differences in jurisprudence is allowed as long as it is reached by a mujtahid Scholar in all sincerety

"So why are you looking for answers to matters from Sunnis"?.

because there is overwhelming evidence in the Quran and Sunnah that they are the rightly guided Muslims:

Qur'anic Evidence

3:103:

"And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of Allah and be not divided."

Imam Sayf ad-Din al-Amidi (d. 631/1233; Rahimahullah) said in his al-Ihkam fi usul al-ahkam (The proficiency: on the fundamentals of legal rulings, pg. 295) with regard to the above Qur'anic verse:

"Allah has forbidden separation, and disagreement with consensus (ijma) is separation."

Hence, if Allah has forbidden separation then surely we must all unite on the unanimously accepted aqid'ah of our pious predecessors.

And from the Quran also; see from 1:14 onwards:

YouTube - Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Creed Of Imam Al Tahawi p6

Hadith Evidence

"The Holy Prophet Muhammmed [sm] said: "There was disagreement amongst the Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, their will be disagreements and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into hell". When asked which group will be on the right path, the Holy Prophet muhammed [sm] replied: "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group that follows my Sunnah and that of the Sahabah [ra] AND THIS WILL BE THE LARGEST GROUP OF MUSLIMS" [Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood, Imaam Ahmed, Mishkat].

"Allah's hand is over the group, follow the largest mass, for verily whoever dissents from them, departs to hell" [narrated by Al-Hakim and Al-Tabari from Ibn Abbas [ra] and al-Lalika'i in al-Sunnah and al-Hakim also narrated it from Ibn Umar ra]

"You have to follow the Jama'a[ congregation] for verily Allah will not make the largest group of Muhammed's [sm] community [Ummah] agree on error" [Ibn Abi Shaybah related it with a Sahih chain]"Verily Allah will not make my community - or Muhammed's [sm] community - agree on error, and Allah's hand is with the largest congregation" [Tirmidhi, #2256]

Abu Amir al-Hawdhani said, "Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan (may Allah be pleased with him) stood among us and said, 'Beware! The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said': 'Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise, and it is the majority group (Jama'ah).' (Abu Dawood, Sunan, 3/4580, English edn)

"Awf ibn Malik reported that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said, 'The Jews split into 71 sects: one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 sects: 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose hand is my soul, my Ummah will split into 73 sects: one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.' Someone asked, 'O Messenger ofAllah (Peace be upon him), who will they be?' He replied, 'The main body of the Muslims (al-Jama'ah).' Awf ibn Malik is the only one who reported this Hadith, and its isnad is acceptable." And in another version of this Hadith the Prophet (Peace be upon him) goes onto say that the saved sect, "...Are those who follow my and my Sahaba's path" (Tirmidhi, vol. 2, pg. 89)

(16) Imam Hakim (1/116) has related a Sahih Hadith from the Prophet (Peace be upon him) in the following words: "My Ummah shall not agree upon error."

(17) Imam al-Tirmidhi (4/2167) reported on the authority of Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who said: "Verily my Ummah would not agree (or he said the Ummah of Muhammad) would not agree upon error and Allah's hand is over the group and whoever dissents from them departs to Hell." (see also Mishkat, 1/173)

Imam al-Azizi (d. 1070/1660; Rahimahullah) quoted Imam al-Munawi's (d. 1031/1622; Rahimahullah) commentary to the last Hadith in his al-Siraj al-munir sharh al-Jami al-saghir (3.449), as follows:- Allah's hand is over the group

(al-Azizi): Munawi says, "Meaning his protection and preservation of them, signifying that the collectivity of the people of Islam are in Allah's fold, so be also in Allah's shelter, in the midst of them, and do not separate yourselves from them." The rest of the Hadith, according to the one who first recorded it (Tirmidhi), is:-

and whoever descents from them departs to hell.

Meaning that whoever diverges from the overwhelming majority concerning what is lawful or unlawful and on which the Community does not differ has slipped off the path of guidance and this will lead him to hell."

Who are the Ahl al-Sunnah?


"Why are you rejecting all sects in Islam"?

All sects in Islam are not rejected as being outside the folds of Islam, for they are still within it; they are however astray, some more than others

"How can you claim that Sunni Muslims represent all Muslims"?.

Sunni Muslims represent 85-90 percent of all Muslims; they also represent the consensus, for a minority going astray and holding erroneous views does not effect the consensus for Allah has forbidden separation [sectarianism/chism], and disagreement with consensus (ijma) is separation.

Originally Posted by c0de

No, it clearly refers to all of humanity.

"Those who argue about him are in doubt about it."[/quote]

Lets try and not overlook the context br.

Originally Posted by c0de

You and your scholars are arguing about what happened to him,

No, we dont argue at all; we all agree that he did not die as the Quran makes clear [and the Sunnah backs up] ,and we certainly dont argue in the way Allah meant it and the context of the whole verse/s corraborates; that Jesus [pbuh] was killed or was crucifed.

Saalam

[c0de]

@ Abdallah

Salam bro



Just for the record, you have apparently
abandoned your argument on the following issue:

That the ascension of the Prophet PBUH was not a vision.
This claim of yours has been refuted by the verse which
clearly states that it was a vision. And because this claim
has been refuted, you are left with no proof from the Quran
to support your argument that anyone has been allowed by
God to travel to, or live in heaven physically.

Now, I will deal with these other points that you have raised,
but I would like you to acknowledge that you have dropped
this claim of yours.

PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -
SHAKIR: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

This verse actually contradicts your entire point brother. Jews are also
the people of the book are they not? And they obviously do not believe
in Jesus PBUH. And this verse clearly says that they all must believe in
something before their death. So what is that thing that they both
must believe in before they die?

Well, first of all the correct translation is: Believe in this. And what this
verse is actually saying that both the Jews and Christians believe
that Jesus PBUH died on the cross (which they do). And because of this,
Jesus PBUH will himself be a witness against them on the day of
resurrection. Because the preceding verse shows us that Jesus PBUH was
not crucified. That is the proper context of this verse.

043.061
YUSUFALI: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

Let me show you something really interesting about the context of
this verse. When I found out about this I was simply amazed! But first
we have to re-examine its actual translation. The one that you cited is
really misleading. Notice how the word "Jesus" is in brackets? Because the
original Arabic does not contain his name. The other translations
(Pickthall, Shakir) both translate it without Jesus PBUH. In fact, this verse
is talking about the Quran, and that it itself is a sign of the hour because
of something that is actually stated in the bible! This is what Jesus PBUH
said:

"Therefore I say unto you, the Kingdom of God shall be taken from you
and given to a nation bringing forth its fruits thereof" (Matt 21:43)

So it was foretold that revelation will be taken away from the Jews
and given to another people (the house of Ishmael), the Arabs.
And this is what makes the Quran the sign/knowledge of the hour.
As this prophecy was fulfilled with the coming of the Prophet.
Now read this verse in this proper context:

SHAKIR: And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour,
therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.


Fascinating isn't it?

No, we dont argue at all; we all agree that he did not die as the Quran makes clear [and the Sunnah backs up] ,and we certainly dont argue in the way Allah meant it and the context of the whole verse/s corraborates; that Jesus [pbuh] was killed or was crucifed.

Your agreement among yourselves does not count.
You are arguing with me aren't you???

I am saying that: I don't know, and you don't know...
And you are saying that: yes, you actually know.
When according to the Quran, no one knows.

So who is following the Quran on this issue?

what do you mean by 'foundation' br;

I mean exactly that: a "foundation".
Where in the Quran does it say Jesus PBUH is alive?
And living in heaven right now? If you could provide me
with even a single verse which states that clearly,
then you would have a foundation in the Quran.

Right now, your foundation is in the hadith because
that is where you are drawing this main part of your
belief from.

All sects in Islam are not rejected as being outside the folds of Islam, for they are still within it; they are however astray, some more than others

Actually brother, all sects are rejected by the Quran.

As for those who divide their religion and break up Into sects, thou hast no
part in them in the least: Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end Tell
them the truth Of all that they did. [Al-Qur'an 6:159]

And hold fast, All together, by the rope Which Allah (stretches out for you),
and be not divided among yourselves; [Al-Qur'an 3:103]

When you make the claim that the companions of the Prophet
were "sunnis" you are making a false claim. The companions of
the Prophet were just Muslims. It is clear from these verses that
all sects are misguided.

in that case, where is your proof that there has to be a verry clear reference to any part of the Sunnah in the Quran if it is to be accepted?;

Here you go:

And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn back, then upon
Our Messenger devolves only the clear delivery (of the message).
(64:12)

Surely there is for you in God’s Messenger an excellent example for him
who aspires to God and the Hereafter, and mentions God oft. (al-Ahzab,
33.21)


Point #1: The only mission of the Prophet was the delivery of the Quran
Point #2: In his example, we have an excellent guide as to how to live our lives

That is what the Sunnah is: the >practices< of the Prophet,
it is not made up of extra-Quranic beliefs or alleged sayings
themselves. That is just the belief of these different sects.
Each sect rejoicing in what it has with it.

These beliefs are what cause hatred among Muslims brother.

So far you have said that hadiths cannot be trusted to be as authentic as the Quran, but I clearly showed how it infact can due to them being the record of the Sunnah, and due to the Sunnah being a neccessity to be incldued in Allah's promise of preservation of the 'Message',

Again, there is a difference between those hadiths which you
are promoting, and the Sunnah (practices) of the Prophet.
Much of the Sunnah isn't even contained in the hadith.

Imam Maliki for example always gave priority to the actual practices of
the people of Medina, instead of the hadith, because he knew that
the Sunnah was better contained in the actual practices then the hadith.
So if he encountered a hadith (of whatever authenticity) and it
contradicted the practices of the people of Medina, he would choose the
practices of the people of Medina over the hadith.

Thats not to say that every hadith is the same level of authenticity as the Quran; however the sahih one's that do not reach the mutawatir level, are obligatory to believe and put into practice; Al-Qari relates, on this point, the consensus of the Companions and the Successors. rejecting them is a grave transgression (fisq) and is even considered misguided (dâll),

And where did he get this consensus from?
Another hadith?? See my point? These hadiths are not
even important as they have nothing to do with the Sunnah.

Every sect basis its own credentials on extra-quranic sources.
When the Quran clearly has stated that they are all misguided.

also due to the meticulous science of hadith/preservation methodology, and particularly the mutawaitr one's being beyond a shadow of dout due to the common sense and verry logical 'doubt proof' evidence of the mutawatir; the same evidence which the reliability of the authenticity of the Quran is based on; another thing to take into consideration is that both the Quran and hadith has been preserved by the same people, thus why can one be trusted and the other not?

Common sense actually says that the Quran is totally authentic
while the hadith is doubtful. Because the Quran was standardized
and spread all over the world within the generation of the Prophet.
The same can not be said of these hadith manuscripts which were
very few in number (compared to the Quran) to begin with.

At this point brother, I'd like to ask you a simple question; how can you be sure that we can trust the Quran that it is the same Quran revealed to the Prophet [saw] and not a distorted one?

Because of faith. Nothing else.

I could care less about the "authenticity" argument on this point.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by c0de

@ Abdallah

Salam bro



Just for the record, you have apparently
abandoned your argument on the following issue:

That the ascension of the Prophet PBUH was not a vision.
This claim of yours has been refuted by the verse which
clearly states that it was a vision.

Alikum salaam br

But I have shown you that the 'vision' word not only carries the meaning of a vision of a distant place or thing while not litterally looking at it, or being somewhere else; it can also mean something which one looks at directly and litterally with their own eyes too.

Also as I expalined earlier the 'vision' word could have been used as Allah was showing him the 'unseen' thus in this sense, as such visions are not revealed to the humans in this world [accept Prophets...], this is why it could have been reffered to as a 'vision' for it was indeed seeing things of a spiritual nature; also we have to take all the contextual evidence into consideration rather than draw our meaning from just one word...

verse [such as the one saying the Prophet [saw] was taken from the inviolable place of worship to the far place...] indicates that it was a litteral taking of the Prophet [saw], rather than just a 'vision'; also there are numerous hadiths that indicate a litteral journey; also there is a consensus of the Scholars in it and see previous post of how there is divine protection on consensus' and that they could never be wrong.

1. “Glorified be He who carried His servant by night . . .” (Qur’an 17:1) This verse from the Qur’an describes the initial stages of the miraculous journey of our Beloved Nabi صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم. One can clearly ascertain from the words of this verse that the Mi’raj was physical: a. Allah ta’ala initiates the verse with the word subhan which means glorified be He Whose Self is pure from all defects and frailties and is above all kinds of weakness and helplessness. He is not dependent upon any means and He is not bound by any physical laws. Those things which look extremely strange to our imagination and which our imperfect wisdom think as quite impossible are not a bit difficult before the Power and Will of Allah. Thus, from the very outset, the event of Mi’raj has been described as extraordinary and the word subhan belies the misconception that the event was only a dream. b. The journey of Rasoolullah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم is further expressed by the verb asra which is used for a journey of body and soul in the state of consciousness by night. This same verb is used elsewhere in the Qur’an too. In Soorah Hood and Hijr, the instruction given to Prophet Loot alayhis salaam by the Angels is: “So take away your people in a part of the night.” (11:81, 15:65) Similarly, Prophet Moosa alayhis salaam is ordered by Allah, “Take away my slaves by night.” (44:23, 20:77) In both cases, the Prophets alayhimus salaam are ordered to take their people physically with body and soul and not spiritually in dream. c. The word ‘abd (servant) is used to mean either the body only or body and soul together. It is not used to mean soul only.

2. Another verse of the Qur’an regarding Mi’raj is: “We appointed the vision which we showed thee as an ordeal for mankind.” (17:60) The word ru’ya (vision) is used for two meanings: dream or vision / view / sight. The Commentators of the Qur’an have given examples from Arabic poetry where ru’ya is used to mean vision/seeing and not dream. Imam Bukhari rahmatullahi alayh has narrated from Abdullah Ibne Abbas رضي الله عنهمa the meaning of the word ru’ya in this verse with the following words: “It (the ru’ya) was an actual eye-witness (account) which was shown to Rasoolullah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم the night he was taken on a journey (through the heavens)”. [Bukhari Vol. 6 page 204]

3. It is an accepted fact that when one relates a story or an event but does not say that it was a dream, it is naturally taken as an incident of consciousness. The verse of the Qur’an describing the miraculous journey and the Ahadeeth do not mention or indicate that it was a dream. Hence this incident will be considered physical in the state of awakening.

4. When the kuffar (disbelievers) of Makkah heard the details of the incident of Mi’raj, they rejected it. They jeered at the Muslims, made fun of Rasoolullah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم and called him a liar. They asked him to describe the masjid in Jerusalem, which he had never seen before. Had it been only a dream they would neither have mocked at him, nor asked for any evidence. Similarly, there was no reason for their rejection as people often dream of strange things. It is apparent that they were asking for further details knowing that the journey was physical. Rasoolullah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم too, did not say that it was only a dream. Instead he substantiated his physical journey with another miracle which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim from Jabir Ibne Abdullah رضي الله عنه that Rasoolullah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم said, “When the disbelievers of Makkah rejected my night journey to Baytul Maqdis and made queries about the details of Baytul Maqdis, I stood in the Hateem and Allah ta’ala opened the veils (between myself and) Baytul Maqdis. I was looking at it and informing them of the details they were asking for.

5. The incident of Mi’raj has been listed amongst the miracles of Nabi صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم. What is so extraordinary about travelling such long distances in a mere dream? This is sufficient to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Rasoolullah صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم travelled from Makkah to Al-Masjidul Aqsa and then ascended the heavens physically with body and soul in the state of awakening within a very limited part of the night.

Mi’raj: Physical or Spiritual? at-Tazkirah: ???????

There you are brother; this is what basically the Sunni view is based on and I suppose corraborated by all these hadiths which talk about the journey of miraj in a physical/litteral sense.

Originally Posted by c0de

This verse actually contradicts your entire point brother. Jews are also
the people of the book are they not? And they obviously do not believe
in Jesus PBUH. And this verse clearly says that they all must believe in
something before their death. So what is that thing that they both
must believe in before they die?

Well, first of all the correct translation is: Believe in this. And what this
verse is actually saying that both the Jews and Christians believe
that Jesus PBUH died on the cross (which they do). And because of this,
Jesus PBUH will himself be a witness against them on the day of
resurrection. Because the preceding verse shows us that Jesus PBUH was
not crucified. That is the proper context of this verse.

Let me show you something really interesting about the context of
this verse. When I found out about this I was simply amazed! But first
we have to re-examine its actual translation. The one that you cited is
really misleading. Notice how the word "Jesus" is in brackets? Because the
original Arabic does not contain his name. The other translations
(Pickthall, Shakir) both translate it without Jesus PBUH. In fact, this verse
is talking about the Quran, and that it itself is a sign of the hour because
of something that is actually stated in the bible! This is what Jesus PBUH
said:

"Therefore I say unto you, the Kingdom of God shall be taken from you
and given to a nation bringing forth its fruits thereof" (Matt 21:43)

So it was foretold that revelation will be taken away from the Jews
and given to another people (the house of Ishmael), the Arabs.
And this is what makes the Quran the sign/knowledge of the hour.
As this prophecy was fulfilled with the coming of the Prophet.
Now read this verse in this proper context:

SHAKIR: And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour,
therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.


Fascinating isn't it?
I mean exactly that: a "foundation".
Where in the Quran does it say Jesus PBUH is alive?
And living in heaven right now? If you could provide me
with even a single verse which states that clearly,
then you would have a foundation in the Quran.

Right now, your foundation is in the hadith because
that is where you are drawing this main part of your
belief from.

Actually brother, all sects are rejected by the Quran.

As for those who divide their religion and break up Into sects, thou hast no
part in them in the least: Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end Tell
them the truth Of all that they did. [Al-Qur'an 6:159]

And hold fast, All together, by the rope Which Allah (stretches out for you),
and be not divided among yourselves; [Al-Qur'an 3:103]

When you make the claim that the companions of the Prophet
were "sunnis" you are making a false claim. The companions of
the Prophet were just Muslims. It is clear from these verses that
all sects are misguided.
Here you go:

And obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn back, then upon
Our Messenger devolves only the clear delivery (of the message).
(64:12)

Surely there is for you in God’s Messenger an excellent example for him
who aspires to God and the Hereafter, and mentions God oft. (al-Ahzab,
33.21)


Point #1: The only mission of the Prophet was the delivery of the Quran
Point #2: In his example, we have an excellent guide as to how to live our lives

That is what the Sunnah is: the >practices< of the Prophet,
it is not made up of extra-Quranic beliefs or alleged sayings
themselves. That is just the belief of these different sects.
Each sect rejoicing in what it has with it.

These beliefs are what cause hatred among Muslims brother.
Again, there is a difference between those hadiths which you
are promoting, and the Sunnah (practices) of the Prophet.
Much of the Sunnah isn't even contained in the hadith.

Imam Maliki for example always gave priority to the actual practices of
the people of Medina, instead of the hadith, because he knew that
the Sunnah was better contained in the actual practices then the hadith.
So if he encountered a hadith (of whatever authenticity) and it
contradicted the practices of the people of Medina, he would choose the
practices of the people of Medina over the hadith.
And where did he get this consensus from?
Another hadith?? See my point? These hadiths are not
even important as they have nothing to do with the Sunnah.

Every sect basis its own credentials on extra-quranic sources.
When the Quran clearly has stated that they are all misguided.
Because of faith. Nothing else.

I could care less about the "authenticity" argument on this point.

br, we could be arguing about this all year long , and just go round in circles; without ever agreeing so I think it's best we just leave it at that with this issue.

Salaam

[c0de]

Salam Brother Abdallah

Originally Posted by Abdullah

But I have shown you that the 'vision' word not only carries the meaning of a vision of a distant place or thing while not litterally looking at it, or being somewhere else; it can also mean something which one looks at directly and litterally with their own eyes too..

Then you failed to understand my point. I never said that the Prophet
never saw what he saw literally. What I am saying is that because God
says it was a vision, it was the Prophet's consciousness which was
taken to those locations, not his physical body. So "he" was there,
yet his physical body was not. (Think in terms of quantum reality)

You on the other hand are arguing that it was his physical body that
was taken to Heaven, and are using this as a case to prove that
Jesus PBUH could be living in heaven physically for the past 2000 years.
The Quran simply does not support this argument, as this is nowhere
stated in the Quran.

this is what basically the Sunni view is based on and I suppose corraborated by all these hadiths which talk about the journey of miraj in a physical/litteral sense.

Exactly, it is the "sunni" view... but I am not a sunni,
just a plain old fashioned Muslim.

br, we could be arguing about this all year long , and just go round in circles; without ever agreeing so I think it's best we just leave it at that with this issue.

We haven't gone around in circles yet brother.
It has been pretty straightforward up till now.

But if you want to end it, then you are free to.

Salam

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by c0de

Salam Brother Abdallah



Then you failed to understand my point.

Alikum salam br

And you have failed to understand mines

I would have thought that it would only be a matter of simple deduction, given the argument I was making, but what I meant by 'literally', preceded by 'vision of a distant place or thing' and followed by, 'or being somewhere else' [whcih should have made it all the more clearer ] is him looking at the things while being there in person

Originally Posted by c0de

I never said that the Prophet
never saw what he saw literally. What I am saying is that because God
says it was a vision, it was the Prophet's consciousness which was
taken to those locations, not his physical body. So "he" was there,
yet his physical body was not. (Think in terms of quantum reality).

So you mean he was there in spirit, i.e his 'ruh' went there?, or are you saying that only his ' consciousness' went there? [if this is what your saying; never heard that one before for we know that either someone goes somewhere physically or in spirit [such as to God in their sleep] or do you mean that going there in conciousness is having a vision of those things from his home [or somewhere else] but those things were real, thus he 'litterally' saw them?

So you think a Prophet cannot be shown 'visions' while looking at the unseen in person?; looking at the 'unseen' [i.e the spritual world] in person can be called a 'vision' for Allah to show the unseen to a person is indeed a 'ruya' [Prophetic] 'vision'] for ordinary people are barred from seeing the unseen before their moment of death...

Do you have any other evidence at all that the Prophet [saw's] miraj was not physical, other than that word 'vision' which you insist on interpeting your way [despite it having other meanings as well] without taking all other contextual evidence into account?

Originally Posted by c0de

You on the other hand are arguing that it was his physical body that
was taken to Heaven, and are using this as a case to prove that
Jesus PBUH could be living in heaven physically for the past 2000 years.
The Quran simply does not support this argument, as this is nowhere
stated in the Quran..

wether there was this proof or not broth, yet Allah still could make jesus [pbuh] live in heaven physically for however long as He pleases, for we have proof that Allah can do all things .

And infact br, resurrection will be both physical and spiritual for all humans:

When Judgment Day comes, Allah will re-create us as He did the first time.

[Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.] (Al-Qiyamah 75:3-4)
Body and Spirit
This resurrection will be in body and in spirit, and this is easy for Allah, having earlier created us from nothing. After judgment has been made by Allah as to who shall enter Paradise and who shall enter the Hellfire,
And They Ask You Concerning the Soul… - Reading Islam.com - Ask About Islam

Originally Posted by c0de

Exactly, it is the "sunni" view... but I am not a sunni,
just a plain old fashioned Muslim..

'Sunni' is a name given to designate correct belief; this group of Muslims are the original body of Muslims who did not break up into sects or break away from the original teachings of the Quran and Sunnah, thus br, it is not a group of the sectarian type; when many other minorities have broken away from the original body of muslims [who were and are on the path of Quran and Sunnah], it is neccassary to distinguish and designate a distinguishing name for the rightly guided muslims, hence the name 'ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah' ['Sunni' for short];

this name is not a biddah [foul innovation] for the Prophet [saw] himself used these words to describe as to how to recognise the rightly guided Muslims at the time of many sects; when asked by his companion/s, how they are to recognise the rightly guided group of muslims at times of many sects, the prophet [saw] replied that it will be the group who follow the Prophet [saw's] Sunnah [way] and the Sunnah of his companions and they will be the largest group of muslims, thus this name is an apt name to describe the group of muslims who have remained on the Prophetic path as 'ahlus Sunnah wal Jammah' means, people of the Sunnah [way of the Prophet 'saw'] and the majority.

Salaam

[c0de]

Salam Brother Abdallah



I will begin by re-stating that verse.
Notice the plain and simple language
of the second sentence specifically.

Verse 60, Chapter 17:

Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about:
We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,-
as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and
warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!

Originally Posted by Abdullah

So you mean he was there in spirit, i.e his 'ruh' went there?, or are you saying that only his ' consciousness' went there?


[if this is what your saying; never heard that one before for we know that either someone goes somewhere physically or in spirit [such as to God in their sleep]

So it is clear that you did not understand my point...
I said his consciousness was there, and consciousness is
just another word for ruh. Now what would happen if your
ruh was taken somewhere without you being asleep?
It would be an experience unlike any other. Not at all like
the sleep that you or me experience. And also unlike any
physical journey. These things can not be defined in the
physical terms that you are describing them brother...

Journeys such as this can not be experienced by you or me.
I do not know if you are aware of the world of Quantum Physics,
but it makes much more sense if I think in those terms.

wether there was this proof or not broth, yet Allah still could make jesus [pbuh] live in heaven physically for however long as He pleases, for we have proof that Allah can do all things .

Again, you either did not understand my point, or you missed
my reply to you before. I never said that I do not believe God can not
make this possible. I said that I do not believe it because He has not said
that He has done this in the Quran. And this is the difference: you base
your foundation for this belief in extra-quranic sources. And since you
can not prove a basis for this in the Quran, I do not accept it.

And infact br, resurrection will be both physical and spiritual for all humans:

Exactly! That is the >resurrection.<
ie. after our death.

'Sunni' is a name given to designate correct belief;

... yea of course, thats what you sunnis say.
Unfortunately however, every other sect disagrees with you.
And they all have their own hadiths and extra-quranic points
which they use to support their points.

Sunnism today are just another institutionalization of Islam...
That is the proof that sunnism is a sect.

this group of Muslims are the original body of Muslims who did not break up into sects or break away from the original teachings of the Quran and Sunnah,

This is exactly what the Salafis/Wahabis say too you know..
Sure you have your argument, and they have theirs. You have
your scholars, they have theirs. You have your hadiths, they
have theirs... I was very close to ahl-hadith at one time, which
are just a branch of wahabis/salafis... so I know how they use
the hadiths to justify themselves as well. According to them, the
majority is what is the problem... I am sure if I bring a wahabi in
the discussion in right now, you two will start a very entertaining
debate immediately...

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by c0de

.
I believe in the Quran and Sunnah and call myself
a Muslim (just a Muslim, not a sunni or shia or whatever).

You sure your not an Ahmediyyah broth?

If you are then lets get it out and discuss it inshAllah

[c0de]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

You sure your not an Ahmediyyah broth?

If you are then lets get it out and discuss it inshAllah

LOL no dude, I am not an ahmedi.
My familly background is actually sunni.
Although I have washed my hands of this label entirely.
Technically, I never accepted it in the first place.

If you think that I am arguing that Jesus PBUH is not returning
because I am ahmedi, then let me assure you that is not the case.
You know what the real problem with the ahmedies is? Even though
they do not believe that Jesus PBUH will return, they still believe in
kind of the same outcome you sunnis do.

They think that a great spiritual transformation is still to
come, and the West will come over and accept Islam, and all of this will
happen before Judgment day... much like all the other sects/cults/divisions
formed among the Muslims... They all use this idea to institutionalize
Islam. They use it as an excuse to form their organizations which promote
their own agendas... exactly like every other institutionalized sect...

But lets get back on point brother,
if you want to continue this discussion,
I would appreciate an answer to the
counter-objections raised to your points.

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by c0de

If you think that I am arguing that Jesus PBUH is not returning
because I am ahmedi, then let me assure you that is not the case.

It was not only that bro, but also as you seemed to have posted the opinion of an Ahmediyyah [Maulana Mohammed Ali] in the End Time Signs: The Holy Qur'an; but I take your word for it

Originally Posted by c0de

if you want to continue this discussion,
I would appreciate an answer to the
counter-objections raised to your points.

InshAllah br; will do

[c0de]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

It was not only that bro, but also as you seemed to have posted the opinion of an Ahmediyyah [Maulana Mohammed Ali] in the End Time Signs: The Holy Qur'an; but I take your word for it

I also used Imam Hanbali's and Imam Maliki's opinion in this thread.
Doesn't mean I am a sunni or a maliki bro.