noddegamra

[_Z_]

noddegamra

i been wondering about the notion of Armageddon in a wider context, many of us have some notion of dramatic change and some that it would be sudden and with a specific result, namely that evil will be overcome. i cannot see any truth in a war between the goodies and baddies, as when we break it down we don’t ever get anyone [who isnt jesus lols] who is 100% one or the other. in all cases environmental aspects are in play making it impossible to put all the blame on an individual even if evil.

what i want to present to you is the idea that in fact rather than everything building up to a climactic battle between good and evil, the opposite is actually what is occurring in the world!
what we actually see is an interchange in religious ideas and a general melting away of boundaries, people are finding similarities more than differences.

over time we have also seen a kind of powerplay where one religion or idea has superseded another in both the east and west. eventually though if current trends continue there will be no all powerful religions ~ if any at all, these will be replaced by sets of philosophical ideas and contrasts with which an individual may build their own interpretation of things.

so do you think an inverted Armageddon is occurring? [where armageddon is simply an expression of general trends].

will peace be found through 1) union or 2) conflict [the answer seams rather obvious to me] ~ by one religion winning through against and above all others. note that here ‘conflict’ doesn’t necessarily mean war and aggression. it may mean that a given set of truths can defeat all others that contradict them.

in all honesty, do you think your religion is that very religion which will eventually win!?

[Dawud]

I agree we are headed towards unity. I believe that the events prophesied in the Bible have already happened. The fact that we are headed in the direction of unity on a global scale shows, in my opinion, that the Return of Christ has, in fact, already happened. What's happening now are dual processes of growth and disintegration. Old, divisive ways are falling apart, and new, unifying ways are on the ascendant.

[_Z_]

is Christ a metaphor now then?

perhaps to the ancient Hebrews the disintegration of their faith may have appeared as like a battle.

[path_of_one]

I think Revelations spoke (1) to the experience of the early Christians under persecution from Rome and (2) to the general experience of peoples everywhere under persecution and human suffering, and the destruction of human society and reasons behind it. That's just my take on it, of course.

I think Christ is in us and among us. I think it's irrelevant if he makes a second physical appearance. We have his teaching, his salvation, and the guidance and power of the Spirit... so what are we waiting for? "The Kingdom of Heaven is among/within us." I do not think Christ is a metaphor. But neither do I think the only way out of our human-created messes on this planet is to wait for a physical appearance of Jesus again to clean it up. I think that eschews the responsibility we were given the last time he was here in physical form.

I believe that change to the new earth will come through unity- the experience of our unity of essence, which is in God and of God. That is to say, we will reach peace through love, and it has nothing much to do with any one religion "winning," but rather God "winning," and God is Love.

That said, new anything is rarely brought forth without destruction of the old. We must die to be reborn. I believe we are experiencing (and have been for quite some time) the birth pains of humanity and the earth, preparing for a new existence. It may well get more painful before the work is completed. Endings are beginnings, and vice versa.

[wil]

[quote=_Z_;152380]is Christ a metaphor now then? [quote]No, yes, maybe??

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...I think Christ is in us and among us. I think it's irrelevant if he makes a second physical appearance. ...

I think the second coming is in our mind. Jesus in his life developed the understanding he was the Christ, one with G!d. The second coming is when we develop that same understanding. The fight is the fight that ensues in our mind and in our forums over this very topic.

I've oft told of my straw that broke the camel's back perception. Much like your noddegamra, it is reverse. The world is waiting for me to raise in consciousness.

[_Z_]

path of one,

I do not think Christ is a metaphor.

if he doesn’t exist or exist without bodily form then he must be?

it has nothing much to do with any one religion "winning," but rather God "winning," and God is Love.

or a completely new understanding is forged out of the old! this is how it has always gone before. if god is to win and god is love we have to show what god is in some way ~ i don’t think vague belief is going to win anything. i am not satisfied with ‘god’ nor nirvana, and if current trends continue i think we will find a new understanding somewhere between the two.

wil,

I think the second coming is in our mind. Jesus in his life developed the understanding he was the Christ, one with G!d. The second coming is when we develop that same understanding.

will it be the same god though? its an interesting idea that humanity has risen, i cannot explain how but i see this even in some of the lesser elements of society. it is as if we are all being challenged and pushed up the hill [where the summit is god ~ even when that idea changes].

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by _Z_

path of one,


if he doesn’t exist or exist without bodily form then he must be?

Lots of things exist without bodily form in the natural world, indicating this is possible. I can't see electricity, but I see its effects when I turn a lamp on. Electricity, though I can't see it directly, is not a metaphor for something. It is what it is. I can't see air (at least not since I've moved from southern California ), but it still sustains life.

Likewise, Christ does exist. Jesus the man is gone from our presence, but Christ lives on. Just because Christ is not here as Jesus doesn't make it less of an existence or turn it into metaphor.

or a completely new understanding is forged out of the old!

I don't know that we get new understanding. I think some individuals have always had the capacity to experience God and to work toward this awareness for all beings. It's nothing particularly new, in fact, it is in many ways a revival of the old.

The limitations of concepts of God and nirvana are more a function of misunderstanding the ancient traditions, I think, and a lack of personal spiritual engagement with both, than a problem of either God or nirvana.

What is new is that it seems the cognitive, and dare I say, spiritual, dissonance between modern social life and God/Love has been increasing and is reaching a critical point. A broader movement of coming toward this ancient understanding is underfoot.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by _Z_

is Christ a metaphor now then?

perhaps to the ancient Hebrews the disintegration of their faith may have appeared as like a battle.

Jesus said that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah when asked why the Jews said Elijah must return before the Messiah can come. I don't have the quote, but it's in the Gospels that they asked Him why the Jews said Elijah must come first. He answered that He did come again. Elijah had returned. It goes on to say that they understood that to mean John the Baptist. I believe it's the same with the return of Christ. New individual, same Light. I believe His new name is Baha'u'llah. If I lose track of this topic, you're welcome to start a new topic about it in the Baha'i forum, I won't lose track of it there.

[_Z_]

path of one

It is what it is. I can’t see air (at least not since I’ve moved from southern California), but it still sustains life.

. good point, without body though jesus is god yes, and god has always been around and in all places and cultures. who’s to say abrahamic religions will be the chosen ~ or any specific culture or religion. by current trends it would appear that [as i see it] truth will not belong to anyone or anything, it just arrives in us all piece by piece

I don’t know that we get new understanding. I think some individuals have always had the capacity to experience God and to work toward this awareness for all beings.

including ancient egyptians and pagans generally? i see your point but people like christ and the buddha take the old and streamline it into something new, and also add new teachings/truths.

What is new is that it seems the cognitive, and dare I say, spiritual, dissonance between modern social life and God/Love has been increasing and is reaching a critical point. A broader movement of coming toward this ancient understanding is underfoot.

indeed.
perhaps sometimes a lack of divinity can create a new wave of understanding it, this may work in individuals too, like how rasputin used sin to throw him nearer to god [as he saw it]. society has been moving away from religion as central to it, which is drawing it nearer, like elastic kinda.

dawud

I believe His new name is Baha’u’llah

i think he is near to it, as we appear to be in a universal approach to truth, but i don’t think he is it ~ i just don’t get that from him + we are not there yet. apart from that baha’i is an abrahamic teaching which limits its universality if universalismis the route.

another thread sometime eh!

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by _Z_

who’s to say abrahamic religions will be the chosen ~ or any specific culture or religion.

Not me. I think all who are in the Spirit are chosen (and have chosen ) to be there. The Spirit isn't limited to the Abrahamic religions.

by current trends it would appear that [as i see it] truth will not belong to anyone or anything, it just arrives in us all piece by piece

Of course, because God doesn't belong to any group. Groups are ephemeral. Life in the Spirit is everlasting.

including ancient egyptians and pagans generally?

No one generally. Everyone individually. All peoples in all cultures have had the inner Divine Light and the capacity to seek after God, and find God. Not everyone seems to have chosen that, but we all have the capacity. The gift is freely given and available to all.

i see your point but people like christ and the buddha take the old and streamline it into something new, and also add new teachings/truths.

I see what you're saying. I think human thought on God changes over time, but God doesn't. We necessarily have various expressions of human experience of God, because we have various languages and cultures to filter that experience through.

perhaps sometimes a lack of divinity can create a new wave of understanding it, this may work in individuals too, like how rasputin used sin to throw him nearer to god [as he saw it].

Some people seem to choose to suffer a great deal, and unfortunately to cause a great deal of suffering, before they choose to turn to God. If enough people do this as a collective, you get an entire society that encourages and wallows in suffering. I am not sure why this is, but it is what I observe.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Religion is an anachronism in the first world, but it is still a viable political force in the developing world. Part of the process of dispersing the pent up energy of religion is through blurring the edges of it's various theologies until a unity born of dis-differentiation emerges. Religion subsides as it's social and cultural peculiarities are truncated, blunted, and aggregated into an undifferentiated spiritual slurry fit to feed the multicultural masses. Unity will bring the death of religion. Hallelujah!

Chris

[wil]

Originally Posted by _Z_

will it be the same god though?

you can't step in the same river twice.

[Dawud]

Originally Posted by _Z_

dawud


i think he is near to it, as we appear to be in a universal approach to truth, but i don’t think he is it ~ i just don’t get that from him + we are not there yet. apart from that baha’i is an abrahamic teaching which limits its universality if universalismis the route.

another thread sometime eh!

If you want, you can start another noddegamra thread in the Baha'i forum. Baha'is not only come from Jewish, Christian, and Muslim backgrounds, the country with the largest number of Baha'is is India, the land of Hinduism. There are also a large number of Baha'is in southeast Asia, where Buddhism is the majority. Muslims in Persia were surprised to find so many Zoroastrians join the Baha'i Faith in its early days. It's more universal than just Abrahamic...

[_Z_]

path of one

No one generally. Everyone individually. All peoples in all cultures have had the inner Divine Light and the capacity to seek after God, and find God. Not everyone seems to have chosen that, but we all have the capacity. The gift is freely given and available to all.

i agree except this; "Not everyone seems to have chosen that"... what if there is something else that comes out of the blender? it may be more tao like for example. the interesting thing for me is that we end up tripping over our meaning and definitions leaving a void in which will fill with god or the tao. so there is something very clever ‘there’ that is like the ultimate anarchist, we cannot put labels on it in any way.

chris

i agree.

"Unity will bring the death of religion" ...and keep its truth.

wil

you can’t step in the same river twice.

see my answer to path...

dawud

It’s more universal than just Abrahamic...

indeed ...but it is not ‘universalism’. otherwise you would be agreeing with all my threads .

[path_of_one]

I guess I should unpack. I don't mean God in the Abrahamic or even personal sense. I just am using the term "God" as a placeholder for The Divine, which is a placeholder for The Ground of Being, which is a placeholder for...



You get my drift?