Non-Duality

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Have you ever heard the term, "not one, not two?"
Doesn't knowing that 'bad' can be transformed into 'good,' and that 'good' can be corrupted into 'bad' remove some of the value attached to 'good' and 'bad?' Is being moved by compassion to transform 'bad' into 'good' a duality? Is being mindful that a 'good' situation can degrade into a 'bad' situation a duality?
Remember the unity in dualities, but don't cling to it, because nothing is really certain. 'Emptiness' is actually full of possibilities. What IS is transient, but real for a space. What IS NOT (the myriad of possibilities) is always there, but do not always manifest, yet contain the seeds of what will be.
{Are you confused as I am yet?}

I thought you were on a roll there!

s.

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Have you ever heard the term, "not one, not two?"

Actually, no. I don't know if the rest of post should have explained it to me, but I don't understand.

Originally Posted by seattlegirl

Doesn't knowing that 'bad' can be transformed into 'good,' and that 'good' can be corrupted into 'bad' remove some of the value attached to 'good' and 'bad?'

If we're just talking about "knowing" then yes, it does. Perhaps I misunderstood before, I thought you were suggesting that I should try and change "bad" into "good", this would attach values

Originally Posted by seattlegirl

Is being moved by compassion to transform 'bad' into 'good' a duality? Is being mindful that a 'good' situation can degrade into a 'bad' situation a duality?

For the second one, no, not necessarily. For the first, that's a question I don't know how to answer. I am right in assuming that your answer would be, "no"?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Actually, no. I don't know if the rest of post should have explained it to me, but I don't understand.

Not simple, not complex.

If we're just talking about "knowing" then yes, it does. Perhaps I misunderstood before, I thought you were suggesting that I should try and change "bad" into "good", this would attach values

Well, the real trick is in realizing that 'bad' will transform into 'good' without any interference from you, and 'good' will also corrupt into 'bad' without any interference from you. Personal labels are therefore not necessary, because you are already connected to it. Things will get done whether you are mindful of them or not. {Do you want to be mindful of them?}

For the first, that's a question I don't know how to answer. I am right in assuming that your answer would be, "no"?

Is transformation a singularity or a duality? Do you separate cause and effect?

[17th Angel]

Seattle... That's just bs.... :| Good doesn't always come from bad and vice versa..... That is just a bunch of happy ever after/fantasy stuff... There are many times where good is simply good and bad is simply bad... with neither crossing each others path....

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Seattle... That's just bs.... :| Good doesn't always come from bad and vice versa..... That is just a bunch of happy ever after/fantasy stuff... There are many times where good is simply good and bad is simply bad... with neither crossing each others path....

I agree with you that there is both good and bad, and that some things can be very good, while some things can be very bad.
'Good' doesn't always last, and 'bad' doesn't always last, unless you choose to remain there. You can move through the bad without getting 'stuck' in it {attached.} You can let it go and move on to better things, and employ the things you have learned, and develop compassion for those who are in the situation you were once in. This is how 'good' can arise from 'bad.'
You can also appreciate 'good' while it lasts, but if you become too attached to it and pursue it, you can corrupt yourself with things like greed and envy when the 'good' passes and you continue to chase it. This is how 'bad' can arise from 'good.'

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I agree with you that there is both good and bad, and that some things can be very good, while some things can be very bad.
'Good' doesn't always last, and 'bad' doesn't always last, unless you choose to remain there. You can move through the bad without getting 'stuck' in it {attached.} You can let it go and move on to better things, and employ the things you have learned, and develop compassion for those who are in the situation you were once in. This is how 'good' can arise from 'bad.'
You can also appreciate 'good' while it lasts, but if you become too attached to it and pursue it, you can corrupt yourself with things like greed and envy when the 'good' passes and you continue to chase it. This is how 'bad' can arise from 'good.'

One more thing what if the good/bad is the last thing you experience? Torture and die from blood loss or old boy having sex and has a cardiac arrest..... ? Like is that a permanent good/bad.... Or something.

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Seattle... That's just bs.... :| Good doesn't always come from bad and vice versa..... That is just a bunch of happy ever after/fantasy stuff... There are many times where good is simply good and bad is simply bad... with neither crossing each others path....

I disagree. I believe if we decide to define things as good and bad then we will always find some bad as result of good and some good as a result of bad.

Please define a bad that you believe no good came of, and a good that you believe no bad came of. I obviously can't prove my thought with a n+1 type proof but I am upto the challenge of backing up my statement anecdotally if you are.

[17th Angel]

The child who is too scared to tell his parents he gets sexually abused......
Dying of a drug over dose....
flipping your god the bird and living in sin and pleasure and happiness with me old mate Satanas...

Shoot.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

One more thing what if the good/bad is the last thing you experience? Torture and die from blood loss or old boy having sex and has a cardiac arrest..... ? Like is that a permanent good/bad.... Or something.

I don't know. Would you remain attached to it?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I don't know. Would you remain attached to it?

I don't know... Is Hitler still remembered for something?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I don't know... Is Hitler still remembered for something?

Hopefully, we have learned the lesson there so as not to repeat it...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Hopefully, we have learned the lesson there so as not to repeat it...

Hopefully....

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

The child who is too scared to tell his parents he gets sexually abused......
Dying of a drug over dose....
flipping your god the bird and living in sin and pleasure and happiness with me old mate Satanas...

Shoot.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I don't know... Is Hitler still remembered for something?

Please identify which of the above you are identifying as bad, and which as good.

My offer was for one of each....as I said, I'm not upto proving n+1

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by wil

Please identify which of the above you are identifying as bad, and which as good.

My offer was for one of each....as I said, I'm not upto proving n+1

Ok, we'll go with the top one for bad, and the bottom one for good. *shrugs*

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Actually, no. I don't know if the rest of post should have explained it to me, but I don't understand.

Hi cav,

I think the phrase “not two and not one” originates with Shunryu Suzuki (or at least that's where I've come across it ) :

“…the oneness of duality: not two and not one. This is the most important teaching: not two, and not one. Our body and mind are not two and not one. If you think your body and mind are two, that is wrong; if you think that they are one, that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one. We usually think that if something is not one, it is more than one; if it is not singular, it is plural. But in actual experience, our life is not only plural, but also singular. Each one of us is both dependent and independent.”

I think it is also helpful to bear in mind one needs to consider from what viewpoint/s is the person speaking (e.g. relatively and / or absolutely, ideally and / or realistically). Sometimes a teaching is an attempt to break down our “normal” way of thinking and the language used cannot be taken on simple “face-value.”

s.