novenas

Francis king · 05-08-2007, 02:15 PM

do ppl think novenas are superstitious bunkum, or will Jesus and Mary be more willing to intercede on behalf of those who recite them?

17th Angel · 05-08-2007, 02:17 PM

You mean Mary as in....

*gets a mirror, turns off the lights*

*naughty giggles*

bloody mary, bloody mary, bloody mary, bloody mary, bloody mary, bloody mary, bloody mary, bloody mary, bloody mary... Nothing happened... Maybe I should try saying Candy man...... ? It's real!

Francis king · 05-09-2007, 02:42 PM

lol, no, 17th... ur supposed to say

mad mary mad mary come to me, 3 times, and then... AHHHH

17th Angel · 05-09-2007, 02:47 PM

but all in all it is that concept though right? Novenas, is to pray but calling out the same thing nine times? In some kind of vein hope it will do something? lol...

Francis king · 05-09-2007, 02:56 PM

the idea was, 17th, that u said the whole rosary or some devotional prayer over nine days, and instead of just ur everyday prayer a novena was more powerful... the theory being that nine is the number of humanity, (and also the number of moons in most years..lol.. in old money)...

JP2, bless his lil cotton socks, tried to bring it back from the brink, and inserted illuminations, meditative contemplations based on the major stories of the bible, alongside the usual prayers and rosary recitation, as prior to that it was generally considered to be a peasant's prayer, rather than something fitting for theologians to reflect upon, unless u were french/spanish or Irish...

I'm taking it that u don't believe it would work, or should work, 17th, so...

for u, does prayer work at all? or is it just bunkum?

wil · 05-09-2007, 03:02 PM

I don't know novenas...

I do believe chanting works...

I do believe prayer works...

I think maybe a novena is sort of a combination of prayer and chant...or that all are the same in different ways...

I think we need to know they don't change G-d, mostly they change us...

A new perspective, a new understanding, is a wonderful thing.

17th Angel · 05-09-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis king

the theory being that nine is the number of humanity

I find this interesting, apologies for not knowing much on this view, but isn't six the number of man? Not only this, if you are going to use nine or six or whatever number represents man, isn't that kind of silly? As man in religion is useless, powerless and not perfect, so to use a divine number say seven.... lol thoughts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis king

I'm taking it that u don't believe it would work, or should work, 17th, so...

for u, does prayer work at all? or is it just bunkum?

I don't believe it would or should work. No for me prayer doesn't do a single thing... People mostly prayer in times of need... Mostly. I found actions speak louder than prayer in these times... And as I am an "ungrateful heathen" I wouldn't pray in thanks either... So, it's not me.... I have tried to pray once... In a major important time, that most will never experience, close way to describe it is, I was in a ditch in hell... With not many options. In the end of that plea, I got no response and turned to action instead, as this was the correct manner to approach the situation.

LeoSalinas22 · 05-09-2007, 03:29 PM

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Thomas · 05-09-2007, 04:28 PM

Hi Francis –

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis king

JP2, bless his lil cotton socks, tried to bring it back from the brink, and inserted illuminations, meditative contemplations based on the major stories of the bible, alongside the usual prayers and rosary recitation, as prior to that it was generally considered to be a peasant's prayer, rather than something fitting for theologians to reflect upon, unless u were french/spanish or Irish...

Are we talking the Rosary here, or novenas in general?

Re Novenas:
A nine days' private or public devotion toward a desired grace. Although the practice is permitted and even recommended by ecclesiastical authority, it has no proper place in the liturgy of the Church – and as one cannot twist God's arm, as it were, and graces are gifts, technically novenas should not work.

Nevertheless, the practice has and continues to be prized and utilized by the faithful.

One cannot say whether prayer works or not, it's a mystery and a matter of faith, so the same extends to novenas ... although one must now include and allow for the psychodynamic effect that owes nothing in that sense to God or Divine intervention ... I'm sure sales professionals fully endorse the effectiveness even of a non-religiously orientated practice.

The Rosary
The idea of repetition, and the constant repetition of prayer, exists as a spiritual discipline across all traditions, even non-theist traditions. Again, the psychodynamic aspect of repetition comes into play...

The Rosary was 'introduced' by St Dominic in the 12th century, as a means for the laity to engage in a constant prayer-practice. The practice actually stretches back a lot further. The constant round of devotion that informs the monastic life was inaccessible to the laity, but Dominic saw no reason that they might be excluded from the practice of prayer.

In monasteries, for example, there is the recitation of the canon of psalms, and pocket psalters were a constant bestseller until a few generations ago, but the Rosary provides an easy, simple, and yet profoundly reflective prayer practice (you only need know three prayers, not the whole body of psalms).

The recitation of the Mysteries between each decade means that the prayerful is constantly recollecting the main events of the life of Christ, so is a condensed form of the Gospels.

I would only argue that some mystics, and some serious heavyweight theologians, were ardent practitioners of the Rosary, so it should not be written 'down' as a poor man's prayer ... quite the reverse, I would say.

Thomas

Thomas · 05-09-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

And as I am an "ungrateful heathen" I wouldn't pray in thanks either... So, it's not me.... I have tried to pray once... In a major important time, that most will never experience, close way to describe it is, I was in a ditch in hell... With not many options. In the end of that plea, I got no response

There's three ways of viewing that:
1 - Think about why you got no response,
2 - Think about why you got no response, and
3 - Think about why you got no response.

I recall a word of advice from an old samurai, who was ridiculed by a younger samurai for his prayer practice:
"One should be mindful," the old man urged, "that when we have the most need of assistance, we are usually wading in the blood of our enemies, a sight quite horrible to behold, and from which heaven is inclined to avert its gaze. If you wish heaven's favour, one should make the effort to deserve it, by putting in the work in the right way, at the right time, for in the middle of a desperate battle is neither the time nor place ... "

Thomas