Obama: just another puppet

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Avi1223

I encourage everyone to reserve judgement until the end year 3 of his first term. Changes cannot be made overnight.

I believe that Obama's greatest contributions in his first term will be on the international landscape. His first international trip was a huge success. He has started changing our image with the people of other countries.

Fixing the economy will take time. It took 8-12 years to put us in this disasterous situation. It will take at least 3-4 years for his new directions to start working.

Utter bollox. All Obama managed on his grand tour was to secure your and my wage slavery for decades to come for a handout to the corporate umbrella, the IMF, that rapes the developing worlds resources and then demands they pay for it.... with interest! Oh yeh...and he "went down on" a fat corpulant Saudi. What a success!! You gotta take them rose coloured lenses out buddy.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I like Obama tremendously as a person,

To me for a while he was an enigma, he was saying the right things, yet there was something glassy and unreal about him.
I think him a coward, a nothing and my prediction is that after he is done not one black in the world would piss on him if he was on fire.
If he takes a bullet it will not be from some racist supremacist but one of his own betrayed believers.

The position the world is in, the challenges we collectively face meant that we really needed a "good' and 'genuine" man in the White House. But we just have another corporate tool. The rape and injustice will prevail.

[I, Brian]

A very jaded view, perhaps, Tao? Or is it that you were expecting something profoundly different in him as a politician?

The turn arounds suggest less puppetry here, as much as many of his ideals were developed outside of government, but now he has access to information within government which is necessarily going to cause him to revise his aspirations to keep them practical.

I know a lot of people have been hopeful of the amount of change Obama can bring in, but I seem to recall many of us thinking similar of Tony Blair when he took office from John Major in the 1990's here in the UK.

You can have change from depressingly bad politicians and their cronies to something new and fresh - but ultimately we're still dealing with politicians.

[wil]

It is always interesting, the new blood everyone thinking things will be different. I don't think it cynical, just naive of our system and reality of the world.

We have these expectations...us the elecorate and Obama the elected. These high aspirations 90% of which are dashed as soon as someone is elected to congress or the senate. The man wasn't in office long enough to understand that he couldn't get a bill through congress without selling his soul to special interest groups and other senators/congressman. He spent his entire congressional career running for the presidency.

So now he is elected to the highest office in the land....er...world...face it he leads the worlds super power...suddenly has the fate of millions in his hands.

With his first meeting bringing him upto speed on what we are doing where in the world they would have to pick him up off the floor.

Then as he presented his ideas the group will tell him the implications and results of putting these into place the inadequacy of the ideals sets in

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Utter bollox. All Obama managed on his grand tour was to secure your and my wage slavery for decades to come for a handout to the corporate umbrella, the IMF, that rapes the developing worlds resources and then demands they pay for it.... with interest! Oh yeh...and he "went down on" a fat corpulant Saudi. What a success!! You gotta take them rose coloured lenses out buddy.

You sound more like Rush Limbaugh here than an unaligned atheist .

Sure it would have been great if Obama could have solved all our problems in 100 days. But what he has been able to do is begin the healing process with the rest of the world.

I should point out that not only did Bush ruin our economy the last 8 years, but Clintons second term was a disaster as well, because of the Monica Lewinski affair.

But Bush also ruined our reputation internationally. His lack of understanding of the dynamics in Iraq has made the US the international bully again.

I think bringing Hillary Clinton into the adminstration and Rahm Emanuel were great starts to his admin.

If you want to we can examine the cabinet more fully.

I think you are a little jealous because Obama is showing up the European leaders

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

A very jaded view, perhaps, Tao? Or is it that you were expecting something profoundly different in him as a politician?

Jaded yes, and justifiably so I think.

I guess I hoped for some real change deep down in my heart somewhere. I had consciously chosen to defer opinion until I saw what he was really about. Now that I see I am disgusted. The shoitmeister will be breaking the hearts of so many people who really did swallow the hook. And its for them I feel really sorry.
I guess I kind of hoped he'd be a real radical, a Ghandi or even a Lenin, and do something real to break the endless cycle of corporate greed and rape. But no change. NO CHANGE.

[path_of_one]

Neither Ghandi nor Lenin changed things on their own. They had a solid movement of people who wanted change. I'll put Lenin aside because I don't think that's a change we really want or need.

To be honest, I don't think Americans have hit anywhere near a rock-bottom that would cause them, as a whole, to wish for real change.

When people said they want change, what they mean is they want more money to spend and to have people like them more when they travel. Very few bother to be informed about much of anything, fewer still care enough to sacrifice even a little bit of comfort or convenience to help others or the environment.

With that kind of culture, where people whine constantly about "big business" but then run down to Wal-Mart to buy the latest flat-screen TV that went on sale...

Is it any mystery that the President has a very uphill battle both in terms of our own government AND ourselves? I believe Obama is a genuine idealist who wants a better US and a better world. But I think it is entirely unrealistic to think one guy and a handful of Americans can change an entire country, much less international policy and organizations such as WorldBank, IMF, and so on. Business owns this country, pure and simple, and until the vast majority of Americans are willing to vote with their wallet and endure a modicum of inconvenience and *gasp* cost to promote fair trade, local and sustainable systems, and so forth... it will not change, no matter who we vote in or how much we whine and pretend that we care.

[Janz]

^ I agree with that statement, path_of_one. Voting with our dollars is the one vote that counts. I have been doing that for 30 years now and I can tell you that 20 years ago, I could NOT find any organic food in my local grocery store chain. Now organic foods can be found even in Wal-Mart these days; however, I still believe in buying from local stores and small business owners and am willing to pay extra to do that. I think the first multinational company that I boycotted was Nestle's. Now they own my favorite ice cream brand..Dreyers and that just makes me MAD!! Sigh..what is a responsible shopper to do.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Path of one

Is it any mystery that the President has a very uphill battle both in terms of our own government AND ourselves? I believe Obama is a genuine idealist who wants a better US and a better world. But I think it is entirely unrealistic to think one guy and a handful of Americans can change an entire country, much less international policy and organizations such as WorldBank, IMF, and so on. Business owns this country, pure and simple, and until the vast majority of Americans are willing to vote with their wallet and endure a modicum of inconvenience and *gasp* cost to promote fair trade, local and sustainable systems, and so forth... it will not change, no matter who we vote in or how much we whine and pretend that we care.

So true. The total sum of the various pressures placed upon the president, probably are making him (although not seriously) question Democracy. The people want reform but they don't want to re-form themselves. I mean, what better excuse would a president need to justify to himself that military rule is the way to go? I do not think this current president would declare marshal law but think about the statement that is being made to leadership in other partial democracies?

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I believe Obama is a genuine idealist who wants a better US and a better world.

Perhaps. But lately most every major decision he's made has been indistinguishable from what I'd expect from the Bush Administration.

Obama

• bailed out big business

• is still in Iraq

• increased presence in afghanistan

• withholds the latest batch of torture photos ("The president consulted with the generals on the ground and made the determination that the release of those photos would endanger our troops." — even uses the same language as Bush)

• used "national security" as rationale

• broke promise "to do business by the light of day"

• reinitiated military tribunals for Guantanomo detainees

So the idealist must be getting bad advice... and not listening to his own conscience.

That's what we voted for and we're not getting enough of it.

I'm so naive.

[path_of_one]

I'm not saying Obama is acting as an idealist, but to be honest I don't think he can. These sorts of decisions are not things he can do by himself without the support of others in office. Furthermore, the problem with idealists (as I well know, as I am one myself) is that one really can't be idealist in halves. What I mean is that there are times when every rational shred of evidence and analysis tells you that you have to trample on your principles and ideals, and the vast majority of people cave. Perhaps rightly so.

I tend to be an uncompromising idealist when it comes to my own decisions, but for that reason I would not want to get into politics. Because in that arena, it isn't about principle but about compromise. It's about security, and any sort of vast change is risky and anything but secure.

Your average liberal American is fickle in their loyalties and their ideals. Let's face it. That's one area of character in which we are (on average) upstaged by the right-leaning fundies. At least they are relatively consistent. Your average liberal American is all about pacifism and transparency and not torturing anyone, until something like 9/11 happens and then they temporarily freak out, throw said principles out the window, and cry for security. Then, when they feel more secure again, they go back to protesting whatever war or other military action brought the sense of temporary security.

To me, the reality in issues of torture, war, and so forth is that as long as human beings choose to compromise the ideal of peace and compassion, and as long as we choose convenience and greed over eliminating poverty (which is one of the biggest underlying factors in violence of various kinds), we will continue to crush any person who is not wholly and nearly insanely committed to pacifism. The government is set up to compromise away any potential for real change as it seeks to make everyone marginally happy so it can continue on for another year, ten years, hundred years. We have a nation that is divided on many issues and fickle on many more. If we can't even decide what we want as a whole, how the heck is the government supposed to make any sort of decision?

The President is the representative of the people, not a rogue decision-maker on his own. No matter what his own principles, he is in part governed by the people's will. And our people are severely divided and often uneducated.

I am as disappointed as anyone could be in the continuance of Guatanamo and the lack of transparency of our government. But then, I am very disappointed with the state of the American people as a culture as well. I can entirely see how the two fit together. The upside of democracy is that, ideally, it is the voice of the people. The downside is the same. We may say it is all corporations' fault or what have you, but who invests in and buys from those corporations? Us. At the end of the day, our government really does represent the people, and if we wish it to change in any appreciable manner, then we need to start voting with our actions and our choices. The occasional whining and blog post just won't do.

[Vajradhara]

Namasker all,

well... is anyone really surprised?

i suppose, as Tao suggested, some people fell for the old politicians trick but that's all it is.. a vote getting trick.

a two party political system (though in theory there are more the reality states otherwise) is always this way.. the only change is a change of faces and even they start to blur together to form some rather amorphous greying face that puts more stock in pleasing a non-existent deity than to actually following through on matters of honor.

in someways voting for a party other than the Big Two is worse than not voting at all, at least if one takes heed of many of their friends advice. i cannot recall how many times i was told that my vote for a third party was actually a vote for the Democrats or the Republicans (depending on whom i was speaking with)... they totally seemed to miss what the point of voting is.. at least for me.

i get the impression that many of my friends have the idea that voting for a politician is like voting for a popularity contest.. if i had a penny (pence) for everytime i've heard something like "he/she's likeable" "he/she's a good public speaker" for the justification for voting, i'd not be having a finiancial crisis!

to quote one of the best rock bands of all time, The Who:

meet the New Boss; same as the Old Boss.

metta,

~v

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I am as disappointed as anyone could be in the continuance of Guatanamo and the lack of transparency of our government. But then, I am very disappointed with the state of the American people as a culture as well. I can entirely see how the two fit together.

OMG! Don't get me started on how shallow and dysfunctional our culture is.

Our government is a direct reflection of it.

[path_of_one]

Yep. To me, it's a cultural phenomenon that everyone likes to whine about the President. It allows us all to forget we're responsible for anything, blame someone else, and then keep on buying cheap crap that is made in China by some eight-year-old kid. I have similar cynical views on why abortion and homosexuality is a big deal in America. In both cases, it allows us to pretend to care about something, stomp our feet and wave a sign (from either side), whilst completely ignoring the really BIG issues for which both humanism and Christianity calls us to accountability: poverty, sustainability... basic compassion.

We in the States like to wave our signs and use our freedom of speech, but we don't really like to roll up our sleeves and do much. Always easier to protest one day out of the year than fix what is wrong, and easier still to engage in the national pastime of whining about the President or the ambiguous "Big Business."

[Avi]

As someone still pretty new to this forum, I have to tell you that I am sort of surprised at the tone of this thread. Putting Obama aside, my post is the 30th on the thread, and except for PoO, it seems like everyone is quite pessimistic about where we are heading (not only with respect to Obama, it seems more general to me).

The reason I am surprised is because as an interfaith forum, it seems like most posters here have some faith, and perhaps many, more than I. Because of my rationalist views, although I have some faith in G-d, I also have some doubts .

So that is why I am surprised, don't some of you have faith that things can get better ?