Obama's Birth Certificate

[Nick_A]

If it turns out that Obama was not born in America it raises constitutional questions as to the right to run for president. The judge asks to produce the birth certificate. This could get interesting. Something is possibly not ethical?? Who could think such a thing in politics? The devil is in the details.

Jon Christian Ryter -- Judge orders Obama to produce birth certificate

Berg's investigators revealed that Obama's own half-sister Maya Soetoro—with whom he was raised—seemed not to know where her own brother was born. In the Nov., 2004 interview by the Rainbow Newsletter Maya Soetoro said Obama was born on Aug. 4, 1961 at Queens Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii. In February, 2008 Maya was interviewed by the Star Bulletin. This time she told reporters that Obama was born on August 4, 1961 at the Kaliolani Medical Center for Women and Children. On June 9, 2008 Wayne Madsen, a journalist with Online Journal published an article in which he said a research team went to Mombassa, Kenya and located a Certificate registering the live birth of Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. to his father, a Kenyan citizen and his mother, a US citizen.

[wil]

If I remember the story correctly this was a dejected Hillary supporter filed the court case against Obama, and tried to get an injuntion on the nomination. The judge took the case but refused to stay the nomination. The fellow had some credentials, small time politician and district attorney I believe.

The claims are extensive. Faslified birth certificates, grandparents remember him being born in Kenya, not claiming to have used other names on his bar application..etc.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by wil

If I remember the story correctly this was a dejected Hillary supporter filed the court case against Obama, and tried to get an injuntion on the nomination. The judge took the case but refused to stay the nomination. The fellow had some credentials, small time politician and district attorney I believe.

The claims are extensive. Faslified birth certificates, grandparents remember him being born in Kenya, not claiming to have used other names on his bar application..etc.

Suppose it turns out that the birth certificate is false and Obama is not a citizen? He has to be removed since the constitution clearly sates that he must be born in America. This could become interesting. If we disregard the Constitution in something so basic, we may as well tare it up.

[wil]

I'm worrying about our constitution and our country. Becoming Socialist overnight, bipartisanship on the Patriot Acts and the 'Bailout' it is scary...and all this.

I've go no dog in this presidential hunt. I personally think Obama would be better for the country than McCain, but mostly because we need a revolution, we need our racism exposed.

And then there is the dual citizenship issue with Indonesia.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by wil

I'm worrying about our constitution and our country. Becoming Socialist overnight, bipartisanship on the Patriot Acts and the 'Bailout' it is scary...and all this.

I've go no dog in this presidential hunt. I personally think Obama would be better for the country than McCain, but mostly because we need a revolution, we need our racism exposed.

And then there is the dual citizenship issue with Indonesia.

I agree Will that we need change. But should change be in a Socialist direction and against the principles of the Constitution or changing to be guided by the principles of the Constitution and not the politically correct attractions of Socialism?

Racism should be exposed but how? We now have political correctness so people are not honest and the problems simmer underneath in the midst of platitudes. People are afraid to be honest with their feelings so as soon as problems occur, people revert to honest conditioned reactions. As many good people are out there, racism will always be present.

I went through it last year during the congressional debates on recognition of the Armenian genocide. Many Jews on Beliefnet didn't allow discussion of this question of recognition even though the Jewish people as a whole suffered so much from the Holocaust. Beliefnet management chose to side with these deniers and took the position that attempts at discussion must be deleted. Discussion of the essence of a Congressional debate is shouted down as too controversial.

So here you have a site that preaches all sorts of humanitarianism but when the chips are down and the question of solidarity arises between peoples that have suffered genocides, the people that deny recognition and their efforts for silence on the issue are supported to avoid controversy. The result is an affirmative FU. Does "never again" mean anything in reality? If it does, then people unite to expose and condemn genocides.

So what then do people believe? Some openly do not practice what they preach while others do. I'd rather know where people stand rather than read platitudes. Then you know who your friends are.

"Equality is the public recognition, effectively expressed in institutions and manners, of the principle that an equal degree of attention is due to the needs of all human beings." Simone Weil

We are incapable of this since we value political correctness that authenticates racial division amongst people.

I'd rather have a revolution that encourages respect of traditional values without hypocrisy and encourage people to be human in respect to higher ideals rather then this political correcness that values our ability to lie. I've been fortunate to experience the harm of this hypocrisy and become more realistic and I think it would be more beneficial to recognize our faults rather than deny them through praise of our ability to lie.

Obama knows this. Probably the best quote that describes Obama is this old classic:

"The secret of the demagogue is to appear as dumb as his audience so that these people can believe themselves as smart as he is." Karl Kraus

He has a good gift of gab that presents Socialism in an attractive light. People swallow it hook line and sinker. At least with Sarah Palin, I know where she stands and trust her values. I'm afraid that I do understand Obama's values and with ancestors killed in the Russian Revolution, I'm not too optimistic as it pertains to his view of change.

[bob x]

This absolute baloney was exposed a very long ago. Yes, he was born in Hawaii. His birth certificate is public record. No, his mother never went to Kenya, and neither did he until late in life.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by bob x

This absolute baloney was exposed a very long ago. Yes, he was born in Hawaii. His birth certificate is public record. No, his mother never went to Kenya, and neither did he until late in life.

Sez you. Apparently a certified copy is the issue. If the judge wants to see the birth certificate it will have to be produced. Why does it seems so hard to do?

DNC steps in to silence lawsuit over Obama birth certificate

"I've been on about 50 radio shows around the country," Berg said, "and on every one I've put out a challenge: Barack Obama, if I'm wrong, just come forth with certified copies of these documents and I'll close down the case."

[brucegdc]

Well, it's also irrelevant. Under the US Code, he is eligible even if he was born outside the US - his mother was a US Citizen, and had resided in the US for more than 5 years. Same condition under which McCain is eligible - born outside the US to one or more US parents.

Certified copies of government documents are occasionally difficult to obtain - and take some time. The last time I needed a certified copy of my birth certificate, it took 3 months - and that was in a well-organized filing system in a functioning bureaucracy. Not all places file data well.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Jon Christian Ryter -- Judge orders Obama to produce birth certificate

Hi Nick_A, your kink is dead.

If legal discovery was in fact ordered by a judge, then you'll need to wait until the findings are made public. In the meantime, here's an article from FactCheck that would seem to address the issues:
FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A.

"The secret of the demagogue is to appear as dumb as his audience so that these people can believe themselves as smart as he is." Karl Kraus

The propagandist is ordinarily easy to identify based on a persistent
tendency to view facts and ambiguities in light of a preferred conclusion.

I'd rather have a revolution that encourages respect of traditional values without hypocrisy and encourage people to be human in respect to higher ideals rather then this political correcness that values our ability to lie

Is it a "traditional value" to lower the evidentary standard for allegations of fact to second rate psuedojournalism and to dress up shabby insinuation politics as having the epistemic legitimacy of constitutional law?

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Hi Nick_A, your kink is dead.

If legal discovery was in fact ordered by a judge, then you'll need to wait until the findings are made public. In the meantime, here's an article from FactCheck that would seem to address the issues:
FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A.


The propagandist is ordinarily easy to identify based on a persistent
tendency to view facts and ambiguities in light of a preferred conclusion.


Is it a "traditional value" to lower the evidentary standard for allegations of fact to second rate psuedojournalism and to dress up shabby insinuation politics as having the epistemic legitimacy of constitutional law?

Hi Netti

If there is nothing suspicious going on, why try to get the suit dismissed? Why not just produce the birth certificate and be done with it?

This site produces a link to the judges order to produce it. The order provides additional facts as to the whole matter.

Federal Judge Orders Obama To Produce His Birth Certificate Texas Hill Country



Apparently Obama has hired Joe Sandler to represent him. Why bother? Why not just give the birth certificate to the judge.

Barack Obama Hires Represented by CAIR Lawyer Joe Sandler Philip Berg v. Obama Federal Court no Decision yet Philip Berg Files Counter Motion Barack Hussein Obama Must Present Proof of Hawaii Birth Certificate Barack Obama’s Attorney Joe Sandle

I will wait to see how the judge rules since fighting the judge suggests something is going on below the surface.

The propagandist is ordinarily easy to identify based on a persistent
tendency to view facts and ambiguities in light of a preferred conclusion.

The demagogue is different. It's appeal is emotional rather than factual as the distorted facts of propaganda appeal to.

Is it a "traditional value" to lower the evidentary standard for allegations of fact to second rate psuedojournalism and to dress up shabby insinuation politics as having the epistemic legitimacy of constitutional law?

If the constitution has requirements to seek the presidency, there is nothing wrong with asking for verification of these requirements in something so simple as a birth certificate.

I suggest that Obama should gladly and openly give it to the judge as a token of respect for the constitution rather than hire a lawyer to fight it. I don't see the sense of it if everything is legit. If it is a fraud, we are entitled to know it and the judge seems to agree.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

I will wait to see how the judge rules ...

In the meantime you've made a great deal about a lack of information.

Btw, what do you think of Palin's husband's refusal to testify?
Todd Palin Ignores Troopergate Subpoena, Lawyer Says Governor's Husband Objects To Probe, Finds Call To Testify "Unduly Burdensome" - CBS News

Would you suggest that Todd Palin should "gladly and openly" cooperate with the investigation process?

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

In the meantime you've made a great deal about a lack of information.

Btw, what do you think of Palin's husband's refusal to testify?
Todd Palin Ignores Troopergate Subpoena, Lawyer Says Governor's Husband Objects To Probe, Finds Call To Testify "Unduly Burdensome" - CBS News

Would you suggest that Todd Palin should "gladly and openly" cooperate with the investigation process?

The constitution is either respected or it is not. If it has a requirement that obligates proving citizenship. It is the obligation of the one seeking to be president to produce it if there are any questions. Asking to produce a birth certificate is not making a big deal but a simple request if it exists. A bigger deal is being made in this effort to deny the suit. Can you explain why it is being denied when it is a very simple matter to just produce the birth certificate.

I'm sorry but I don't know the details about troopergate but they cannot be compared. Citizenship is a basic requirement pertaining to the presidency.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

The constitution is either respected or it is not. If it has a requirement that obligates proving citizenship.... Citizenship is a basic requirement pertaining to the presidency.

Have you checked how citizenship is defined? Someone is a citizen if they were

born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
US CODE: Title 8,1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

If you're an attorney with a bankground in constitutional law and you do not agree with the language of Title 8 of the U.S. Code, feel free to make your case.

As for transparency, what do you think of Republican state legislators trying to shut down the Troopergate investigation?
Supreme Court to hear Troopergate appeal: Gov. Sarah Palin | adn.com

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Have you checked how citizenship is defined? Someone is a citizen if they were

born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;
US CODE: Title 8,1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

If you're an attorney with a bankground in constitutional law and you do not agree with the language of Title 8 of the U.S. Code, feel free to make your case.

As for transparency, what do you think of Republican state legislators trying to shut down the Troopergate investigation?
Supreme Court to hear Troopergate appeal: Gov. Sarah Palin | adn.com

Hi Netti

I'm not a lawyer. I'm a musician with a background in common sense and a rather unique ancestry.

What I do know is that it is all very confusing. For example:

IS OBAMA AN AMERICAN CITIZEN? by Don B. — election barrack obama vote, hillary clinton, senator | Gather

Berg claims in the lawsuit, that Obama was born in Kenya, not Hawaii as Senator Obama claims (and we all know Obama doesn't lie). The lawsuit claims Obama's mother traveled to Kenya with his father but was prevented from flying back to Hawaii because of the late stage of her pregnancy, "apparently a normal restriction to avoid births during a flight." Which is also what Obama's paternal grandmother, half brother and half sister have also claimed.
According to Berg, inconsistent accounts of Obama's birth, including reports that he was born in two different hospitals--Kapiolani Hospital and Queens Hospital--in Honolulu, as well a profound lack of birthing records for Stanley Ann Dunham, though simple "registry of birth" records for Barack Obama are available in a Hawaiian public records office.
If Obama was really born in Kenya, Berg says, the laws on the books at the time of Obama's birth hold that U.S. citizenship may only pass to a child born overseas to a U.S. citizen parent and a non parent if the former is at least 19 years of age. Obama's mother was only 18 at the time and therefore, because U.S. citizenship could not legally be passed on to him, Obama couldn't be registered as a "natural born" citizen and is thus not eligible to seek the presidency pursuant to Article II, Section 1 of the United States Constitution.
Berg also states that if Sen. Obama could have somehow been deemed "natural born" that citizenship was lost in or around 1967 when he and his mother took up residency in Indonesia, where Stanley Ann Dunham married Lolo Soetoro, an Indonesian citizen. Berg also states that he possesses copies of Sen. Obama's registration to Fransiskus Assisi School In Jakarta, Indonesia which clearly show that he was registered under the name "Barry Soetoro" and his citizenship listed as Indonesian.
Read the entire story here.
http://www.newscred.com/article/show/title/msm-ignores-democrat-lawsuit-against-obama-48af298aa757a
As you can see, the details are not clear. If his mother was eighteen at the time of his birth, it adds a new wrinkle. This is why the judge must rule in this. I surely don't know the facts. But since it is an important constitutional question, it must be ruled upon.
Such a constitutional question cannot be compared to the troopergate accusations. If you say "who cares," you may as well say the same for any other part of the constitution.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

In the meantime you've made a great deal about a lack of information.

Btw, what do you think of Palin's husband's refusal to testify?
Todd Palin Ignores Troopergate Subpoena, Lawyer Says Governor's Husband Objects To Probe, Finds Call To Testify "Unduly Burdensome" - CBS News

Would you suggest that Todd Palin should "gladly and openly" cooperate with the investigation process?

First of all, in my opinion, and this is just me, could easily be 100% wrong. But when someone asks for validation that someone was born in the US as has we have been informed. And then the response is, well he could still be president even if he wasn't or what about this issue that the other party did... It becomes obvious that no matter what is proved, the opinion will move forward. So he/they falsified documents, look it doesn't matter. Well it does matter for someone to get my vote. (btw I have the same opinion for Palin)

We gotta face it. There are different levels of justice. This is all the exact reason I refused to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance in high school over 30 years ago.

If it was one of us, one of the peons we couldn't afford to avoid justice. However, if you have money, power or influence you can get away with most anything.

Palin and Obama now falls in the ranks of Bush, Cheney, Clinton (both of em) etc. they can avoid, refuse, cause mistrials, not produce documents, on infinitum. Unless the powers that be turn against them...then forget it their ship just sunk. We must remember, Clinton was impeached, Nixon wasn't...

OJ has just found out he isn't in the cliche anymore. Nobody knows how many times a capitol police officer or others drove a Kennedy and their cars home when they were caught on the road innebriated. Part of the benefits of being in the club.

Who's not in the club? Most of us. Who's really out of the club? All those blacks that fill our jail cells for having in their possesion a small percentage of crack cocaine then is let walk by the droves when white americans are caught with much more powdered cocaine.