Obligations vs. Rights

[path_of_one]

Nick, we simply have different beliefs. You base yours more (it seems) on Weil and philosophy in general. I base mine on my own mysticism (the experience with the Spirit), a great number of thinkers from a wide variety of religions, and on social science. You may say science is useless in the domain of society, but I staunchly disagree, which is why it is my profession. You think my beliefs are a dream. I think your beliefs ignore how human beings actually operate and how society functions, as well as what the potential of humanity is and the nature of the human spirit. Neuroscience and the social sciences do have a lot to offer in learning about how the human brain works and how groups function. To ignore them is to ignore a lot of data and valid theory, which is fine until you actually try to go out and change society or improve things, or find solutions for social and environmental problems, and then you find that all that data, methodology, theory, and so forth is quite useful.

It comes back to an issue of God and relationship to humanity. I have the impression that for you, God is distant and you think humans can function "on our own," even if this results in horrible consequences.

For me, God is in my own heartbeat and in every breath I take. If I am aware of this, then my potential is limitless in those moments- I am heading toward unity with God and all beings. If I am unaware of this, the grace of God still exists and is still within me, but I do not know it, and so I act unthinkingly and without care.

I choose to believe that God can work in anyone's life as God has in mine. That a "technological age" has nothing much to do with my capacity (or another's) for unity with God and love of all beings. If God can do this in my life, why would I suppose God is incapable of it in others' lives? Why would I limit others by my assumptions of their lack of potential for salvation and awareness?

I do not seem to agree with Simone, and so for you my beliefs and experiences are invalid. I can only say that I read many people, both from religious and spiritual perspectives and from science. But I am not them, and my beliefs are based fundamentally on my own experience of God and Her work in my own life. It may be "just a dream" to someone else, but for me it is a reality I live each day. Such is the nature of things.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

But is a selfish society all we are capable of?

No.

Could a society further the balance of obligations with rights?

Yes.

Can it be done without help from above.

There is nothing "above" to help us.

s.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Nick, we simply have different beliefs. You base yours more (it seems) on Weil and philosophy in general. I base mine on my own mysticism (the experience with the Spirit), a great number of thinkers from a wide variety of religions, and on social science. You may say science is useless in the domain of society, but I staunchly disagree, which is why it is my profession. You think my beliefs are a dream. I think your beliefs ignore how human beings actually operate and how society functions, as well as what the potential of humanity is and the nature of the human spirit. Neuroscience and the social sciences do have a lot to offer in learning about how the human brain works and how groups function. To ignore them is to ignore a lot of data and valid theory, which is fine until you actually try to go out and change society or improve things, or find solutions for social and environmental problems, and then you find that all that data, methodology, theory, and so forth is quite useful.

It comes back to an issue of God and relationship to humanity. I have the impression that for you, God is distant and you think humans can function "on our own," even if this results in horrible consequences.

For me, God is in my own heartbeat and in every breath I take. If I am aware of this, then my potential is limitless in those moments- I am heading toward unity with God and all beings. If I am unaware of this, the grace of God still exists and is still within me, but I do not know it, and so I act unthinkingly and without care.

I choose to believe that God can work in anyone's life as God has in mine. That a "technological age" has nothing much to do with my capacity (or another's) for unity with God and love of all beings. If God can do this in my life, why would I suppose God is incapable of it in others' lives? Why would I limit others by my assumptions of their lack of potential for salvation and awareness?

I do not seem to agree with Simone, and so for you my beliefs and experiences are invalid. I can only say that I read many people, both from religious and spiritual perspectives and from science. But I am not them, and my beliefs are based fundamentally on my own experience of God and Her work in my own life. It may be "just a dream" to someone else, but for me it is a reality I live each day. Such is the nature of things.

Yes Path, we have different beliefs. I would never criticize you for trying to be a good person but I have a mind like a chess player and am drawn to understand the position.

The position in this case is why everything repeats. I've become convinced that because we are as we are, everything is as it is. It seems depressing but if that is how it is, why ignore it? Everything is as it is because it is an expression of man's collective being. I've read it explained as a pillow. You can push down on various sides which just changes another side. The pillow will always compensate for how we push it and regardless of the shape, always will be a pillow.

It is the same with Man as part of the Beast. Compassion is met with atrocity. It is part of the nature of the beast. You believe this nature can change from our volition. I assert that change is only possible with help from above that allows for the experience of a more human emotional perspective.

Yes I agree with Simone and others on this. You want to do good which is a fine thing but I also wonder why even though everything has been said over and over, history repeats itself.

Dr. Jim Grote has studied Simone and I agree with his conclusions since it is also what I've learned. It is a minority position and not politically correct but it still allows me to understand the dynamics of society and how we underestimate the role of prestige regardless of fine speeches.

Jim Grote: Prestige: Simone Weil's Theory of Social Force