Oldest fragments of the Ancient Wisdom?

[Hermes]

Ok. I was wrong - I was thinking of the pre-christian Hawaii where there are no written records, the Maya had their writing[s].

Originally Posted by seattlegal

What are you talking about? The Mayan/Olmec are one of only a handful of civilizations that independently developed writing proper...too bad so many of their transcripts went the way of the book burners...
Have you checked out the pictogram (non-alphabetic) writing of Easter Island?

[AndrewX]

Please note that the Egyptian Denderah Zodiac is a `written' cycle, as can be researched by the serious student ... going back, or recording THREE cycles of the 25,000 year precessional zodiac. The idea that the great Sphinx (and pyramids) were built more recent than this is preposterous ... although at least we now have the archaeological EVIDENCE - via flood (water erosion damage from ~12,500 years ago) - to show a much older build date than Egyptologists still foolishly claim.

It's nothing short of insisting on a flat earth or a geocentric cosmos, at this point.

To have three cycles recorded for us demonstrates record-keeping to nearly 100,000 years ... although other civilizations have watched the heavens for much, much longer ~ and have also recorded astronomical and astrological cycles (going back several 100,000 years). I take all of this as written evidence, though not necessarily showing any kind of communication from the gods.

When we trace the origins of physical humanity back as far as occult insight currently allows, we can come up with a precise YEAR for the proper horoscope of Humanity ... showing when this Kingdom first came into physical incarnation (or was born) upon this planet. Nick and I know that this number is somewhere around 18 million years ago, even though this was the 3rd Root Race ... and well into it.

This means that the first 2 1/2 Epochs of Humanity, going back several tens of millions of years, did not involve physical incarnation ... or Mind, at all (in the individualized sense), so that Seattlegal is right on. Once the `Spark of Mind' was stimulated, however, it certainly took several million years for this to mature in any sense, so we are still a relative newcomer to evolution upon this planet ... when you consider Mind as part of the equation. It is, after all, how we get our name, and it's what defines us as a Kingdom, or distinguishes us (in those rare and ideal situations where it is actually used).

This confines our scope to a few million years, but trying to lop off Atlantis arbitrarily will never help you with your understanding. The current and 5th Root Race can be traced back nearly a million years, definitely OVERLAPPING with Atlantean civilzation by hundreds of thousands of years. LONG, long before the final flood catastrophe that wiped out the last island remnant of Atlantis in 9564BC ... and even before the prior two events (in ~75,000BC and ~200,000BC) there was Egyptian civilization, at its HIGH points. ALL that we know of Egypt today is but a pale, poorly understood reflection of what once WAS.

If you understand Root Races, you know that the first ARYAN or 5th Race bodies were the Indian, or Hindu. The following excerpt, on Wikipedia, is from The Solar System, by Col. A.E. Powell, itself a compilation of various Theosophical writings. Naturally, you will need to check them all with your own clairvoyance ...

Blavatsky asserted humanity was presently in the fifth root race, the Aryan race, which Theosophists believe to have emerged from the previous fourth root race (Atlantean root race) beginning about 100,000 years ago in Atlantis. (When Madame Blavatsky stated the Aryan root race was 1,000,000 years old, she meant that the souls of the people that later physically incarnated as the first Aryans about 100,000 years ago began to incarnate in the bodies of Atlanteans 1,000,000 years ago.) Theosophists believe the Aryan root race was physically progenerated by the Vaivasvatu Manu, one of the Masters of the Ancient Wisdom.The small band of only 9,000 people constituting the then small Aryan root race migrated out of Atlantis in 79,797 BC. A small group of these Aryan migrants from Atlantis split from the main body of migrants and went south to the shore of an inland sea in what was then a verdant and lush Sahara where they founded the "City of the Sun".

[Etu Malku]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Please note that the Egyptian Denderah Zodiac is a `written' cycle, as can be researched by the serious student ...

You are really losing me here . . . The Dendera zodiac (or Denderah zodiac) is a widely known Egyptian bas-relief from the ceiling of the pronaos (or portico) of a chapel dedicated to Osiris. This chapel was begun in the late Ptolemaic period.

Ptolemaic Egypt began when Ptolemy I Soter invaded Egypt and declared himself Pharaoh of Egypt in 305 BC and ended with the death of queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and the Roman conquest in 30 BC.

The idea that the great Sphinx (and pyramids) were built more recent than this is preposterous ... although at least we now have the archaeological EVIDENCE - via flood (water erosion damage from ~12,500 years ago) - to show a much older build date than Egyptologists still foolishly claim.

This is still a debate among Egyptologists and scientists. I wouldn't jump to this conclusion without further evidences. But, I admit I like the premise!

When we trace the origins of physical humanity back as far as occult insight currently allows, we can come up with a precise YEAR for the proper horoscope of Humanity ... showing when this Kingdom first came into physical incarnation (or was born) upon this planet. Nick and I know that this number is somewhere around 18 million years ago, even though this was the 3rd Root Race ... and well into it.

This means that the first 2 1/2 Epochs of Humanity, going back several tens of millions of years, did not involve physical incarnation ... or Mind, at all (in the individualized sense), so that Seattlegal is right on. Once the `Spark of Mind' was stimulated, however, it certainly took several million years for this to mature in any sense, so we are still a relative newcomer to evolution upon this planet ... when you consider Mind as part of the equation. It is, after all, how we get our name, and it's what defines us as a Kingdom, or distinguishes us (in those rare and ideal situations where it is actually used).

This confines our scope to a few million years, but trying to lop off Atlantis arbitrarily will never help you with your understanding. The current and 5th Root Race can be traced back nearly a million years, definitely OVERLAPPING with Atlantean civilzation by hundreds of thousands of years. LONG, long before the final flood catastrophe that wiped out the last island remnant of Atlantis in 9564BC ... and even before the prior two events (in ~75,000BC and ~200,000BC) there was Egyptian civilization, at its HIGH points. ALL that we know of Egypt today is but a pale, poorly understood reflection of what once WAS.

If you understand Root Races, you know that the first ARYAN or 5th Race bodies were the Indian, or Hindu. The following excerpt, on Wikipedia, is from The Solar System, by Col. A.E. Powell, itself a compilation of various Theosophical writings. Naturally, you will need to check them all with your own clairvoyance ...

Blavatsky asserted humanity was presently in the fifth root race, the Aryan race, which Theosophists believe to have emerged from the previous fourth root race (Atlantean root race) beginning about 100,000 years ago in Atlantis. (When Madame Blavatsky stated the Aryan root race was 1,000,000 years old, she meant that the souls of the people that later physically incarnated as the first Aryans about 100,000 years ago began to incarnate in the bodies of Atlanteans 1,000,000 years ago.) Theosophists believe the Aryan root race was physically progenerated by the Vaivasvatu Manu, one of the Masters of the Ancient Wisdom.The small band of only 9,000 people constituting the then small Aryan root race migrated out of Atlantis in 79,797 BC. A small group of these Aryan migrants from Atlantis split from the main body of migrants and went south to the shore of an inland sea in what was then a verdant and lush Sahara where they founded the "City of the Sun".

Of course after reading all of this gobbledygook I am not surprised by your theories.

[Hermes]

While I am not a theosophist and I do not consider HPB's every single word as a gospel, I would not call it "gobbledygook" either......The problem with every single books that there are some people who take every word of it literally - As with the Bible or the Secret Doctrine you simply must read between the lines and accept that certain assertion can be wrong (either on purpose or by mistake). You cannot ignore these seminal works just because it states incorrect or incomprehensible information. Anyway - just my 2 cents....

Originally Posted by Etu Malku

You are really losing me here . . . The Dendera zodiac (or Denderah zodiac) is a widely known Egyptian bas-relief from the ceiling of the pronaos (or portico) of a chapel dedicated to Osiris. This chapel was begun in the late Ptolemaic period.

Ptolemaic Egypt began when Ptolemy I Soter invaded Egypt and declared himself Pharaoh of Egypt in 305 BC and ended with the death of queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and the Roman conquest in 30 BC.

This is still a debate among Egyptologists and scientists. I wouldn't jump to this conclusion without further evidences. But, I admit I like the premise!

Of course after reading all of this gobbledygook I am not surprised by your theories.
[/INDENT]

[Nick the Pilot]

Hermes,
　
　
The people who gave us the Secret Doctrine made it very clear that we should not take the Secret Doctrine literally, we must read between the lines, and anyone who fails to read between the lines is coming up with false information (and falling into fundamentalism, and the Secret Doctrine is very much against fundamentalism). And, in my opinion, this is true of every sacred text, fortunately, the Secret Doctrine is up-front and honest about this while other sacred texts are not.

[Etu Malku]

Originally Posted by Hermes

While I am not a theosophist and I do not consider HPB's every single word as a gospel, I would not call it "gobbledygook" either......The problem with every single books that there are some people who take every word of it literally - As with the Bible or the Secret Doctrine you simply must read between the lines and accept that certain assertion can be wrong (either on purpose or by mistake). You cannot ignore these seminal works just because it states incorrect or incomprehensible information. Anyway - just my 2 cents....

I've read the Secret Doctrine years ago, as well as many other Theosophical texts, perhaps "gobbledygook" was a bit pretentious. My apologies.

[AndrewX]

I think it's the authorship of certain texts we must ever keep in mind, be these the works of H.P. Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, Helena Roerich, Lucille Cedarcrans, Cyril Scott, Geoffrey Hodson, David Anrias [pseudonym of David Ross] and so on. In each of these cases there remains not the faintest shadow of a doubt in my mind as to the influence - or in some cases - near-complete authorship and inspiration ... of various works we might consider.

In HPB's case there are The Secret Doctrine, Isis Unveiled and The Voice of the Silence ... yet a good number of the articles and other contributions made by her also bear the stamp of the Mahatmas. The latter, in her case are too numerous to list - especially if we consider any one of them by the many appellations and noms de plume which apply (e.g., Hilarion/Illarion, Serapis, Morya/Maurya, etc.).

Alice Bailey wrote for exactly 30 years at the dictation of the Tibetan Master DK, but students of her Teachings also realize that there are other influences present ... as her own Teacher is the Master KH, and also since the impress of the Christ Himself can be found standing behind the entire Teaching Work of the Tibetan as a whole. The Great Invocation, specifically, is provided *through* the Tibetan by the Christ Himself, via Alice Bailey ... to Humanity as a whole, just as was the Christ's earlier rendition of this ancient Atlantean invocation, known to Catholics as the Paternoster, or the `Our Father/Lord's Prayer.'

David Anrias [Brian Ross] also provides direct Teaching from the Christ in the book Through the Eyes of the Masters, samples available online at Amazon.com and at Alpheus.org [where the Message of the World Teacher is reprinted in full, along with a portrait of the Christ and other Great Ones as sketched by Anrias]. It was Lord Agastya [Master Jupiter, the senior-most in the Hierarchy], HPB's `Old Gentleman,' Narayan, who provided most of the material (or Inspiring influence) which David Anrias wrote down ... in those cases where dictation occurred. Anrias tells us something of the technique that was required in the case of learning to produce the pencil sketches of the Great Ones, but I would say his contributions are most meaningful for occult students of astrology.

The implications should be obvious. We have a Master, here, who has been studying the Heavens for longer than most of us in the West even recognize civilization as having existed. In the case of Master Jupiter it is an advanced astrology, probably something that only the senior-most of Initiates can properly grasp [Lord Agastya has other Masters as his students] ... stretching into considerations of Cosmic cycles and influences, and we're very fortunate that someone like Anrias was around to write books like Adepts of the Five Elements and the already mentioned Through the Eyes of the Masters.

It is the contributions through Mabel Collins, coming from Master Hilarion [St. Paul & Iamblichus in earlier incarnations] which might interest someone trying to trace the earliest written fragments of the Ancient Wisdom. The following excerpt is from the Commentary upon Light on the Path, first published in 1885:

"It is but a small book even now; but the first form in which we see it is smaller yet. It is a palm-leaf manuscript, old beyond computation; so old that even before the time of Christ men had already forgotten its date and the name of its writer, and regarded its origin as lost in the mists of prehistoric antiquity. It consists of ten leaves, and on each leaf are written three lines only, for in a palm-leaf manuscript the lines run along the page, and not across it as with us. Each line is complete in itself—a short aphorism. The language in which these aphorisms are written is an archaic form of Sanskrit.

The Venetian Master [Paolo Veronese in an earlier incarnation, now a senior Master in the Hierarchy as is Master Hilarion] translated them from Sanskrit into Greek for the use of His Alexandrian pupils, of whom the Master Hilarion was one in His incarnation as Iamblichus. Not only did He translate the aphorisms, but He added to them certain explanations which we shall do well to take along with the original."

Finally, I would say that it is far more difficult to dismiss the Masters, and the subject of the origin and Inspiration behind the Teachings given by the same, via Their representatives in the outer world ... than it is even to account for the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Koran, Vedas and Buddhist Sutras. All are inspired by or the Living Embodiment of ~ the Ancient Wisdom. To quibble that such & such a book wasn't printed until a few decades, centuries or millennia ago ... is to ignore the true source of the Wisdom.

Is it likely, after all, that beings who travel from distant sources - be they Interplanetary or Interstellar - in NON-physical craft, would go out of their way or even be able to transport physical, `written' texts along with them, especially when the languages in question would not at all be something that Earth's Humanity can understand?

I think we might need to go one step further, on this or another thread, and ask: What IS the Wisdom? Answering this, we may be in a better position to ask, When first do we find written instances of the same in Earth's history?

And will it be any surprise for some of us if we discover that even in the days of Lost Lemuria (millions of years ago) there are instances? I have just such EVIDENCE in the form of a book entitled The Lemurian Scrolls, and I trust the Arhat-author's clairvoyance as implicitly - or far more so - than I do or would any of you, or ANYONE involved in any exoteric religion today. After all, the one has no special need, no special interest in bending the Truth, even slightly, in order to please or suit the masses ... and such bending, again as some of us know all too well, is what popular, mainstream religion is all about, having been this way as far back as we can imagine.

So what is it we're really after? Evidence that God has always led the Children of the Most High, even as these may walk in some lowly and as-yet-unenlightened form upon this - and similar planets? I think such evidence can be found *ABUNDANTLY*. We just need to be fairly specific about what it is we're searching for ... and then, if we haven't already answered it in the process, we need to ask the question: What EVIDENCE are we [or am I] willing to accept?

Without being clear about such matters, it's no wonder we chase our tails, ourobouros-like, endlessly and needlessly.

Namaskar

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Any ideas....?
Many people say it is in Egypt, or India or somewhere else. I think both Egypt and India goes quite far back. Buddhism and Tibet came from Nepal (back then India and the Bon Shamanistic tradition).
Any learned men (or women) here to chime in? Chaldea (now Iraq) is a candidate but most historians say Egypt is the cradle of civilization - what do you say?
P.S. for the sake of argument let's not bring up Atlantis etc. - albeit I might take your word for it, but there is hardly any historical evidence to support this chain of argument.....

As mentioned, Sumer and the development of Mesopotamian cultures, as the first recognised "civilisations".

I think arguing about Egypt vs India is a misnomer - both civilisations developed after, but have caught the public imagination a lot more.

[radarmark]

May be true but... it seems that Native American (south and north) had verbal knowledge going back 15-20k years. Academia used to make fun of their "quaint beliefs", which had to be wrong because no one was in the Americas before 5k years. The 20k-15k figure has been pretty much accepted even in the most conservative of academia.

Ditto for the Bushmen and Aboriginals.

Schliemann was laughed at for thinking Troy was real by academia. And of course everyone scoffed at an illiterate singers reciting the Iliad or some of the longer Irish-Welsh epics. Parry and others pretty much rebuked those notions as well.

It is possible (and I would say likely) that a the oldest fragments would be found in the oral traditions, not in the oldest civilizations recognized by Europeans. They still talk about things in their history from 5-20,000 years ago. Heck, we didn't even realize there was really a Troy until about 100 years ago.

See it depends on what you mean by "ancient wisdom". Those Hopi and Mayan stories go back well before the first clay tablets of Sumer. I do not believe that the "oldest fragments of the Ancient Wisdom" necessesarily have to come from Mesopotania (I vote for the Iranian plateau as far as "cradle of civilization goes")

[pohaikawahine]

In my view,the ancient wisdom has been carried forward to today woven like a tapestry in chants, legends, rituals, books, thoughts and revelations. The stories of the lost continents of Atlantis, Lemuria are also part of this ancient wisdom. Even the Hawaiian Chant of Creation "Kumulipo" (the deep source) has many layers (veils) of meaning "ho'oopuka'o" conversational, "kaona" hidden meaning, "noa'h'on'o" spiritual level, and perhaps "huna" sacred. It starts:

O ke au i kahuli wela ka honua
At the time of the turning when the earth was heat
O ke au i kahuli lo le ka lani
At the time of the change when the heavens turned inside out
O ke au i kuka'iaka ka la
At the time when the sun was darkened
E ho'omalamalama i ka malama
To cause the moon to shine
O ke au o Makali'i ka po
The time of the rise of the Pleiades .....etc

It takes us from the time of darkness to the time of light (the birth of man). It tells us of the past, the first great wave (the flood) that when the land of "Ta Rua" (aKa Lemuria) sank beneath the oceans. It tells us of an event that took place long ago with the birth of "Pola'a" a supernova that first made its appearance in July of 1054 AD and cast a red light over the night sky. (The Apache Indian also have a prophecy about the red sky. And it tells us that there will be another great wave. The sacred inner meaning of the chant tells us who we really are and where we are going.

But it is not only the Hawaiian Chant that tells us these things, you will find them in many ancient traditions, religions, cultures. It is all connected and we can see the connections when we are ready to open our minds. We may walk different paths, but we all see the same moon when we get to the top of the mountain.

If you think only one tradition or way is the correct way, you are not prepared to reach the top of the mountain with the others. I love the Jewish tradition that talks about the regathering. When we finally move out o the desert and cross over we can only do it one by one, but when we get there we will all have access to the promised land. The islands will rise again, the walls will stand, and we will be whole. The Aboriginals will return to the Dreamtime as will we all.

These are just my thoughts to share with this thread. He Hawai'i Au, pohaikawahine