Oldest fragments of the Ancient Wisdom?

[Hermes]

Any ideas....?
Many people say it is in Egypt, or India or somewhere else. I think both Egypt and India goes quite far back. Buddhism and Tibet came from Nepal (back then India and the Bon Shamanistic tradition).
Any learned men (or women) here to chime in? Chaldea (now Iraq) is a candidate but most historians say Egypt is the cradle of civilization - what do you say?
P.S. for the sake of argument let's not bring up Atlantis etc. - albeit I might take your word for it, but there is hardly any historical evidence to support this chain of argument.....

[Nick the Pilot]

Hermes,

I think it goes back much further, way before Atlantis.

[Hermes]

darn...I knew you were going to say that....

...how about the post-big-flood period.....???

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hermes,

I think it goes back much further, way before Atlantis.

[AndrewX]

Records show big floods about 800K years ago, 200K years ago, 75K years ago ... then the ice age of most recent history, some 12,000+ years ago. The date given for the last remnant of Atlantis sinking was 9564BC ... and this can be called Poseidonis, well-known of ancient Greek legend.

The Giza Pyramids were built by around 200,000 years ago, and the Sphinx a good bit earlier in the corresponding Age of Leo. I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a definite *end* of the Atlantean period and a clear rise of the modern Era ... especially if you ask `according to what standards, what means of measure?'

The fact that we had the capacity [or someone did] to get those Pyramids there, let alone the other technologies involved, points to an Egypt that was in its Golden period many tens of thousands of years ago ... and the fact that these were Mystery Temples [for Initiation] 200kya reinforces the idea that our Blue Lodge on Sirius is the origin for the Brotherhood on this planet.

If we want to see something physical, it's going to be difficult to insist on much ... since the physical world is the densest of those we experience, and marks the point of lowest incarnation - for Deity and for man. A man can hold the Secret Doctrine, or a copy of the Bhagavad Gita; aren't these old fragments of the Ancient Wisdom? How about the Vedas?

Light on the Path, by Mabel Collins, is a good account by one of the Masters, based on an ancient incarnation ... in which he came to the Ideal of the Path. Another work by the same Master is Idyll of the White Lotus.

You might also study the Stanzas of Dzyan, and the story of their modern rediscovery. Are you familiar with these? They are the basis for, being the slokas found translated in The Secret Doctrine, by H.P. Blavatsky, given by her Teachers.

Or there is the Emerald Tablet of Hermes ...

[Hermes]

Ok, let me rephrase the question; Who preceded who - the Egyptians or India? I get a lot of static when I bring up Pythagoras as the PC, anti-western civilization crowd loves to throw it in my face that he "borrowed" his knowledge from Egypt or India, well I am not interested in where he got it but rather who had it "first" (not counting those before the deluge...)

[wil]

are we talking a physical fragment or mental fragment?

[AndrewX]

I think the answer is India, in both cases ... but again the question is, which deluge?

2560BC? I think not.

[Etu Malku]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

The Giza Pyramids were built by around 200,000 years ago

The oldest pyramid in Giza was built around 2560 BC . . . hardly 200,000 years ago

[radarmark]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Any ideas....?

Originally Posted by Hermes

Many people say it is in Egypt, or India or somewhere else. I think both Egypt and India goes quite far back. Buddhism and Tibet came from Nepal (back then India and the Bon Shamanistic tradition).
Any learned men (or women) here to chime in? Chaldea (now Iraq) is a candidate but most historians say Egypt is the cradle of civilization - what do you say?
P.S. for the sake of argument let's not bring up Atlantis etc. - albeit I might take your word for it, but there is hardly any historical evidence to support this chain of argument.....

The "usual candidates" in the west ranging from some Chalcolithic peoples in what is now the Mediterranean and Black Sea basins (before they were seas) to the Mehrgarh pre-Indus peoples. Since the Iranian Plateau (call it Elam) is about half-way in between and Egypt and Sumer are “slightly too young”, I think that is a safe bet if by "civilization" you mean having metal and writing, it is the Iranian Plateau Proto-Aryans. However, the Han Chinese and Meso-American civilizations (especially the latter) would have to be considered as co-candidates. I just cannot believe metalwork and writing (both of which were probably property of the royal or priestly casts) would propagate to the Yellow River and the Andes within the span of one millennia (plus or minus 500 years). The Yellow River civilization probably took root from an earlier people in the (what is now) Mongolian Desert who also began the Uyghur Desert civilization. The Caral Supe civilization probably gave rise to both the Andean and Norte Chico cultures.

Please note all “hot-spots” (Mediterranean Basin, Iranian Plateau, Mongolian Desert, Chilean Coast) either are poorly researched or adjacent to now-submerged areas.

If you are talking about cities as indicators of civilization, the discovered Chalcolithic, Mehrgarh, Yellow River, and Norte Chico regions are simultaneous (within 400 years or so).

If you want to go back further, let's look at the "people of the sea" legends from Iberia to Taiwan. They terrorize the people of early coastal Mediterranean, India, and Far Eastern areas. The Chalcolithic peoples of the Mediterranean-Black Sea Basin are not likely candidates because some natural catastrophe flooded the basin or basins. Nor are the Mehrgarh peoples likely candidates, unless there is some undiscovered pre-Vedic seaport in the Gulf of India. The earliest boat people were the Aborigines and it is possible that Mundas of Southern India and Ainu and Basques are remnants of their wanderings (though not likely). If none of those three peoples work, we have R Buckminster Fuller’s Annamites of South East Asia. They might have been the core of the boat-peoples.

So does “civilized” mean metal-using, written language using, town-dwelling, or world-conquering? They each give a different answer.

[Nick the Pilot]

Hermes,

According to my belief system, our world is presently populated by a highly advanced "worldwide culture," this is the fifth time this has happened, Atlantis was the fourth such advanced worldwide culture to appear, and there were three others which appeared and disappeared even before Atlantis appeared. (Feel free to ask about some archaelogical sites that are submerged under the oceans which seem to support such an idea.)

Again, according to my belief system, each of these highly advanced worldwide cultures had fragments of the ancient wisdom, but it is probably impossible for us today to track down such physical examples. Furthermore, and again, according to my belief system, the Old Testamant was not given directly to the Jews but was given to the first worldwide culture, was then handed down to each subsequent worldwide culture, and the Jews were merely the most recent people to receive it (but this idea should be addressed in a separate thread, instead of derailing this thread).

[seattlegal]

My answer would be that the oldest fragments of ancient wisdom reside within our minds as archetypes.

[Etu Malku]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

My answer would be that the oldest fragments of ancient wisdom reside within our minds as archetypes.

I'll second that

[Hermes]

Thanks for ALL the nice answers. I also tend to believe in the cyclical nature of civilizations and Atlantis also in the idea of our mind is the storehouse of the Ancient Wisdom - however, I was talking about lesser esoteric ideas such as ages of known knowledge (written) between Egypt and India or perhaps other parts. It is no use of speculating about the mesoamerica and their age or knowledge when they unfortunately left no written records. Pythagoras and Apollonius were both recorded travelers of the East and they have been taught while journeying. Also the native Hawaiians and Australians had knowledge and aspects in their customs of the Old Ways, but they were not into writing down records either.

Originally Posted by Etu Malku

I'll second that

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Thanks for ALL the nice answers. I also tend to believe in the cyclical nature of civilizations and Atlantis also in the idea of our mind is the storehouse of the Ancient Wisdom - however, I was talking about lesser esoteric ideas such as ages of known knowledge (written) between Egypt and India or perhaps other parts. It is no use of speculating about the mesoamerica and their age or knowledge when they unfortunately left no written records.

What are you talking about? The Mayan/Olmec are one of only a handful of civilizations that independently developed writing proper...too bad so many of their transcripts went the way of the book burners...

Pythagoras and Apollonius were both recorded travelers of the East and they have been taught while journeying. Also the native Hawaiians and Australians had knowledge and aspects in their customs of the Old Ways, but they were not into writing down records either.

Have you checked out the pictogram (non-alphabetic) writing of Easter Island?

[Etu Malku]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Thanks for ALL the nice answers. I also tend to believe in the cyclical nature of civilizations and Atlantis also in the idea of our mind is the storehouse of the Ancient Wisdom - however, I was talking about lesser esoteric ideas such as ages of known knowledge (written) between Egypt and India or perhaps other parts. It is no use of speculating about the mesoamerica and their age or knowledge when they unfortunately left no written records. Pythagoras and Apollonius were both recorded travelers of the East and they have been taught while journeying. Also the native Hawaiians and Australians had knowledge and aspects in their customs of the Old Ways, but they were not into writing down records either.

In that case you need not look any further than Mesopotamia, Sumer to be exact, where the oldest known writings come from.

The debate between the Indus Valley (India) and Egypt having the oldest records is still going on, I put my money on Egypt since it was inhabited from Mankind's origin which is Central Africa, from there Mankind moved north and east/west.