Omniscience and Free Will - Can both exist? - Page 2

Mirko · 10-02-2008, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

Sombody tell me how one can have a free will and free choice when the God who created us already knows what we are going to do. God effects all of our choices.
uncaused free will, uncaused free choice. choice without something or someone influences our choices. It is impossible to make a choice or will without cause.

Darren

look it is simple

if entity1 knows what entity2 will do, entity1 does not necesarily influence the free will, if any, of entity2
if entity1 influences entity2 then free will of entity2 comes in question, but what entity1 knows is not an issue

there is nothing in the statement "entity1 knows all that entity2 will do" that implies entity1 influences entity2 in any way
it may, if it is said that it is capable of influencing entity2, and choses to do so, but this is not stated, so it can only be asumed, in the same way it can be asumed that an entity3 influences both entity1 and entity2, and does not even know of it

winner08 · 10-10-2008, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirko

look it is simple

if entity1 knows what entity2 will do, entity1 does not necesarily influence the free will, if any, of entity2
if entity1 influences entity2 then free will of entity2 comes in question, but what entity1 knows is not an issue

there is nothing in the statement "entity1 knows all that entity2 will do" that implies entity1 influences entity2 in any way
it may, if it is said that it is capable of influencing entity2, and choses to do so, but this is not stated, so it can only be asumed, in the same way it can be asumed that an entity3 influences both entity1 and entity2, and does not even know of it

If one believes in God who knowsthe end from the beginning. If one believes that God has foreknowledge of everything that will happen then it is impossible to for one to have a free will. The two contadicts each other. How could it be possible for God to know what is going to happen in each and ever person alive life if one has free will ,if you really think about it, logicaly it can't happen. One can not have free will and God has forknowledge. If one believe in Scripture and Scripture says God does not change, then Gods plan for mankind would never be completed. God's plan is going to be a,b,c,and d but human free will will be c,d,e and a. Contadicts. How many times a day does a person change his or her mind?? So every time a mind is changed God would have to change course and God does not change. That's all there is to it.

Mirko · 10-10-2008, 05:56 PM

look its not a question of what one believes or not, its simple logic
i you know what someone will do that does not alter what someone does
if you have a way of altering what someone does you may chose not to
so someone will do what he/she wills regardless of weather you know of it or not if you dont do something, assuming there is something you can do

or like this;
a proposed divinity
knows what i will do
has the power to affect me so i do not do it
can chose not to affect me so i do what i will
a proposed me with free will
knows a limited amount of information
has power to affect the world around it in limited ways unless stopped by other powers
can chose to act on free will unless influenced or forced otherwise

so the divinity that knows all i will do can chose to influence or not influence my free will, and if it choses not to influence me i will do what i will or can do at the moment, uninfluenced by that particular divinity

and if we assume the proposed divinity has a plan, that again has nothing to do with the amount of knowlege that divinity has or what part it had in the origin of the uniwerse, it merely means it has a plan, as no doubt manny conscious entityes can be safely assumed to have
we can then hipotesize the plan involves statistical probablility, or that an amount of redundancy was preprogramed for flexibility, or that the divinity personaly or by other agents influences free will to move things acording to plan

all this has nothing to do with the original question
omniscience is not directly conected with free will, first we must assume the all-knowing want to influence free will, and then to assume they have the means or power to influence free will, those are two whole steps further from the direct relation of allknowing and free will

even so, the assumption a power of some sort can chose to divert you from doing your free will or that it can treathen or punish you for using it still does not mean you cant have free will, merely that using it is problematic or difficult

Thomas · 10-10-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

If one believes in God who knows the end from the beginning.

As I do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

If one believes that God has foreknowledge of everything that will happen then it is impossible to for one to have a free will.

Not at all.

Consider a God who is truly omniscient. This means a God who knows all your options, all your choices, so that the outcome of any choice you might make or might not make are equally known to God.

So you have a choice of A or B. You choose A. God knows the outcome of this choice, before you made it, and therefore He equally knows the outcome of B, had you chosen that.

He doesn't know because He can see the future and knows what you will do, He knows because all possibility exists in Him, there is nothing we can do, or not do, that He does not know before the world was made.

The actual choice you make is no more nor less 'real' for God, because you made it, only for you. God is not changed in any way by the choices we make. Only we are. Our choices place us nearer or further from God.

So as far as God is concerned, you are free to choose, it makes no difference to Him. It's the whole world to us.

+++

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

How could it be possible for God to know what is going to happen in each and ever person alive life if one has free will

You're forgetting God knows everything that can happen, before the world begun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

If one believe in Scripture and Scripture says God does not change, then Gods plan for mankind would never be completed.

The plan is laid and completed in the Eternal. God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Plan includes every possible eventuality ... God had all the bases covered, if you like ... you cannot come up with anything God hasn't allowed for, if you did, you'd have out-thought God.

The fact that God allows for everything must include your free choice. You seem to be working from the premise that God doesn't know what you're going to do until you do it ... which is wrong ... or that you can think of something that God hadn't thought of ... wrong again.

If we have no free will, then we have no 'choice' and if no choice then we can't be held responsible for what we do ... the 'choice', and the fault, lies with God. That's illogical — you end up with a god who's a very nasty piece of work ... if such was true then the whole premise of the Abrahamic God is a nonsense.

The only other alternative, if not choice, is to be at the end, right at the beginning.

But then there'd be nothing to do.

All that really matters is why does God allow you to make the wrong choices?

Thomas

mee · 10-10-2008, 07:24 PM

JEHOVAH can foresee whatever he wishes to foresee.

God’s omnipotence and omniscience make it impossible for him to fail. He always predicts the future accurately.

Hence, he could say: "Surely just as I have figured, so it must occur; and just as I have counseled, that is what will come true." (Isaiah 14:24)

intrepidlover · 10-13-2008, 05:26 PM

How do any of you KNOW whether God is omniscient, omnipotent or both? Perhaps a verse or two in the Bible suggested to you that he might have either of both of these attributes. Just about any viewpoint can be supported by selective extracts from Scripture.

Are we assuming that the Bible is infallible? I do not assume any such thing. I believe that such a notion is an opinion and not necessarily a fact.

Analysis of my own life suggests to me that I do not have free will. My actions are the inevitable result of factors including genetics, upbringing, available knowledge. Do I know or care whether God already knows my choices before I make them? No, not I. Do I know or care whether God influences my choices? No, not I.

I cannot see any practical merit to this discussion for individuals who have already acknowledged that they do not have free will.

ZenBirdist · 10-15-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon

11) If there are some experiences that are never had, through the excercise of free will, then God does not have them either - for God can only have those experiences that are had.

Most excellent line of discussion, Simon!

Consider parallel universes and a bit of quantum physics for a moment while mulling over your thought-provoking question. God by any name is the alpha (the beginning) and the omega (the end) in virtually all ancient and modern faiths. Such a timeless God must surely have sapience across time and dimension, including that which has been and that which will never be.

A dear friend of mine had a disease which put her in a wheelchair at a very young age. As adolescent philosophers, we believed that there exists around us an infinite number of realities. On one she would be strong and on her feet, in another reality she would be doing something else, and whatever experience she could dream of, she had an assurance that all possibilities were being played out. In her dreams she would visit those scenes and bring back with her to this reality something life-affirming, something inspiring.

I digressed a bit, but to get back on topic, my answer to your question is yes, they both exist. I believe that Free Will is essential for Faith to exist. Faith without choice is fear. My God (as my humble human self experiences her higher power) is Love and salvation from fear. God's Omniscience brings me peace, as my faith isn't in God's plan (mutually exclusive of Free Will) but rather in God's omnipresence and divine, unyielding love for us.

Respectfully,
Zen

Caimanson · 10-15-2008, 10:36 PM

I think this debate stems from inconsistencies in the Bible. One side portrays god as a benign entity that is fully in control of mankind's destiny. The other side seeks obedience and compliance by emphasizing personal responsibility.

You can exercise logic and make them work together (sort of), in my view the big issue is that free will and predestination have both very disturbing implications when you consider why some people make it and some don't. In that light I can only smell religionist manipulation.

winner08 · 10-16-2008, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caimanson

I think this debate stems from inconsistencies in the Bible. One side portrays god as a benign entity that is fully in control of mankind's destiny. The other side seeks obedience and compliance by emphasizing personal responsibility.

You can exercise logic and make them work together (sort of), in my view the big issue is that free will and predestination have both very disturbing implications when you consider why some people make it and some don't. In that light I can only smell religionist manipulation.

Frist of all: There are no inconsistencies in Scripture, God'a word is pure and true it doean't contradict or change. Man does. You smell religionist manipulation. Of course you do man screws up everything he touches. Just take a look out your widow.

winner08 · 10-16-2008, 12:32 AM

[quote=Thomas;165579]As I do.

Not at all.

Consider a God who is truly omniscient. This means a God who knows all your options, all your choices, so that the outcome of any choice you might make or might not make are equally known to God.

So you have a choice of A or B. You choose A. God knows the outcome of this choice, before you made it, and therefore He equally knows the outcome of B, had you chosen that.

He doesn't know because He can see the future and knows what you will do, He knows because all possibility exists in Him, there is nothing we can do, or not do, that He does not know before the world was made.

The actual choice you make is no more nor less 'real' for God, because you made it, only for you. God is not changed in any way by the choices we make. Only we are. Our choices place us nearer or further from God.

So as far as God is concerned, you are free to choose, it makes no difference to Him. It's the whole world to us.

+++

You're forgetting God knows everything that can happen, before the world begun.

The plan is laid and completed in the Eternal. God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Plan includes every possible eventuality ... God had all the bases covered, if you like ... you cannot come up with anything God hasn't allowed for, if you did, you'd have out-thought God.

The fact that God allows for everything must include your free choice. You seem to be working from the premise that God doesn't know what you're going to do until you do it ... which is wrong ... or that you can think of something that God hadn't thought of ... wrong again.

If we have no free will, then we have no 'choice' and if no choice then we can't be held responsible for what we do ... the 'choice', and the fault, lies with God. That's illogical — you end up with a god who's a very nasty piece of work ... if such was true then the whole premise of the Abrahamic God is a nonsense.

The only other alternative, if not choice, is to be at the end, right at the be

How does not having free will means we don't make our own choices?

Free will a will without cause. something or someone causes the way we make our choices. That's all. What's so difficlut about this??

winner08 · 10-16-2008, 12:37 AM

[quote=winner08;166168]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

As I do.

Not at all.

Consider a God who is truly omniscient. This means a God who knows all your options, all your choices, so that the outcome of any choice you might make or might not make are equally known to God.

So you have a choice of A or B. You choose A. God knows the outcome of this choice, before you made it, and therefore He equally knows the outcome of B, had you chosen that.

He doesn't know because He can see the future and knows what you will do, He knows because all possibility exists in Him, there is nothing we can do, or not do, that He does not know before the world was made.

The actual choice you make is no more nor less 'real' for God, because you made it, only for you. God is not changed in any way by the choices we make. Only we are. Our choices place us nearer or further from God.

So as far as God is concerned, you are free to choose, it makes no difference to Him. It's the whole world to us.

+++

You're forgetting God knows everything that can happen, before the world begun.

The plan is laid and completed in the Eternal. God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Plan includes every possible eventuality ... God had all the bases covered, if you like ... you cannot come up with anything God hasn't allowed for, if you did, you'd have out-thought God.

The fact that God allows for everything must include your free choice. You seem to be working from the premise that God doesn't know what you're going to do until you do it ... which is wrong ... or that you can think of something that God hadn't thought of ... wrong again.

If we have no free will, then we have no 'choice' and if no choice then we can't be held responsible for what we do ... the 'choice', and the fault, lies with God. That's illogical — you end up with a god who's a very nasty piece of work ... if such was true then the whole premise of the Abrahamic God is a nonsense.

The only other alternative, if not choice, is to be at the end, right at the be

How does not having free will means we don't make our own choices?

Free will a will without cause. something or someone causes the way we make our choices. That's all. What's so difficlut about this??

You said it yourself. God already knows the end from the beginning.
If God's plan is set in motion and He knows excactly what you are going to do before you do it then how is that free? God sets up the circumstances For you to chgoose the way you do in order to follow His plan. You Still have to make a choice depending on ;the circumstances.

c0de · 10-16-2008, 05:55 AM

Thomas

Quote:

If we have no free will, then we have no 'choice' and if no choice then we can't be held responsible for what we do ... the 'choice', and the fault, lies with God. That's illogical — you end up with a god who's a very nasty piece of work ... if such was true then the whole premise of the Abrahamic God is a nonsense.

The only other alternative, if not choice, is to be at the end, right at the beginning.

But then there'd be nothing to do.

All that really matters is why does God allow you to make the wrong choices?

Thomas

Not necessarily.

I understand your concern, as I shared it for a long time. However, one has to accept the simplicity of the problem before us, without complicating the issue:

If the universe is deterministic, then there is no free will.

So is it deterministic or not? If God is All-Knowing, and All-Powerful,
then the universe is, by definition, deterministic. If you look at the issue objectively you will have to accept that there is no way to avoid this conclusion.

However, (and this is the important bit) even though it is deterministic, there is a way to avoid the follwing conclusion: "...you end up with a god who's a very nasty piece of work ... if such was true then the whole premise of the Abrahamic God is a nonsense."

There is a solution to this paradox. But it requires an answer to a VERY DEEP question which has troubled mystics since the beginning.

How do you reconcile the Wrath of God, with his Mercy?

These are two, seemingly contradicting attributes. If we understand how this is possible, that God can have both these qualities, at the same time, we will understand the solution to the paradox. This understanding, I believe, is essential for anyone who wants to progress on the path of any of the Three Abrahamic Faiths.

In the Quran, for example, it is clearly stated that If God wanted, He could have guided all mankind. But He lets those go in error who "wrong themselves". Is there a contradiction here? It seems at first sight there is. But lets look closer. And to do this, we have to understand what the purpose of Hell is.

Those who "wrong themselves" are the ones who will enter Hell. But what is Hell? Is it a place where pain is meted out for eternity? No. This is a misconception. Hell is a place which the wicked will go through as a purification. But purification towards what?

This is not a seperate question, but is essential to understanding the paradox. God created man, to take his place above the angels. Not just some men... but "Man"... Mankind (and womankind of course). But all men have to go through a purification. And what is "purification"?

Lets look at nature (this usually always helps). How is gold purified? You melt it, until the impurities are separated from the core metal. But this process is very harsh is it not? Rumi (the Persian Sufi poet) once wrote of the harsh stages a seed of wheat has to go through before it can become bread, and bring benefit to mankind. All such processes, require a lot of effort in order to return a benefit.

Now lets look at human nature, how do good men attain character? They go through trials. Which seem like "hell" when one is going through them. This is exactly the concept of Hell. To purify man. According to sayings of Jesus (PBUH) in the Bible, and Mohammed (PBUH) in the hadith, the wicked shall be taken out of hell.

So now, the last and most pressing question: If God is All Powerful and so Merciful, why did He not create a world in which man could have been purified without all the hassles? Why does one have to suffer so much pain in order to experience eternal bliss.

The answer to this question is simply mathematical. Lets examine the word "eternal". What does it mean mathematically? Eternal means infinite. So "eternal bliss" would mean "infinite Bliss". So basically, the comparison here, is between something finite (hell/pain) and infinite (heaven/bliss). This might seem like a fair comparison from the point of view of philosophy. But mathematically, there is NO comparison here. Why? Because nothing finite, could ever be compared with anything infinite. Even if man spent billions of years in hell, but ended up in infinite bliss afterword, there would still be nothing to shed a tear about. And according to one saying of the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) the longest time anyone will spend in Hell, is the time span of 80 years (basically a human life time). The point being, infinite bliss is a reward which is so unimaginably out of proportion, that even if man is put through whatever trial, as he is going through that pain, he will feel it... but when he reaches the destination, he will understand that the reward he got in the end... was priceless.

This is how we can understand how even in a deterministic universe, in which no one has any "free will", God can still be understood as "The Benificient, The Merciful". Because ultimately, God is in total control of everything. And He knows what He's doing, and where He is leading us. And its all good. So in this way, even without clinging on to this concept of "free will" we can get through the day just fine.

Take Care

mee · 10-17-2008, 06:47 PM

What

is meant by Jehovah’s being omnipotent and omniscient?

Jehovah told Abraham: "I am God Almighty." (Genesis 17:1)
Being almighty—omnipotent—Jehovah can use his power to overcome any obstacle to the fulfillment of his promises and purposes.

Jehovah is also all-knowing, all-wise—omniscient.
He thus can foresee whatever he wishes to foresee.

These two qualities make it impossible for Jehovah to fail. (Isaiah 14:24)

and yes we have freewill

So when good or bad things happen in your life, it is not because these events are inevitable.

Very often, ‘unforeseen occurrences’ are simply the consequences of other people’s decisions—whether wise or unwise. (Ecclesiastes 9:11)

No, your future is not planned out before you, and your own decisions determine what your everlasting future will be.

winner08 · 10-18-2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

What

is meant by Jehovah’s being omnipotent and omniscient?

Jehovah told Abraham: "I am God Almighty." (Genesis 17:1)
Being almighty—omnipotent—Jehovah can use his power to overcome any obstacle to the fulfillment of his promises and purposes.

Jehovah is also all-knowing, all-wise—omniscient.
He thus can foresee whatever he wishes to foresee.

These two qualities make it impossible for Jehovah to fail. (Isaiah 14:24)

and yes we have freewill

So when good or bad things happen in your life, it is not because these events are inevitable.

Very often, ‘unforeseen occurrences’ are simply the consequences of other people’s decisions—whether wise or unwise. (Ecclesiastes 9:11)

No, your future is not planned out before you, and your own decisions determine what your everlasting future will be.

Tell me please how does anyone have free will when God's will is ALWAYS DONE. If God's Will IS Always done then how in the world can YOUR will be done? The two contadicts itself. If you say you have free will and your will will be done over God's will Then you don't believe God is Who He says He is. I AM. God who created the universe and everything in it but yet His will is out done by man's free will? Becaus that's what your saying your will is stronger than God's will. you can't have it both ways either God's will is always done or man's will is always done If Gods will is always done and God does not change then your will has no influence over God's will.
YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOOTH WAYS it is impossible!!

Darren

mee · 10-21-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winner08

Tell me please how does anyone have free will when God's will is ALWAYS DONE. If God's Will IS Always done then how in the world can YOUR will be done? The two contadicts itself. If you say you have free will and your will will be done over God's will Then you don't believe God is Who He says He is. I AM. God who created the universe and everything in it but yet His will is out done by man's free will? Becaus that's what your saying your will is stronger than God's will. you can't have it both ways either God's will is always done or man's will is always done If Gods will is always done and God does not change then your will has no influence over God's will.
YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOOTH WAYS it is impossible!!

Darren

the question is ,what is Gods will.

Gods original purpose for the earth was to have a paradise earth with people on it,
a paradise earth filled with obedient humans enjoying everlasting life.

that original purpose has not changed ,even though because of freewill satan and Adam and eve have made that paradise out of sight for a while ,

Gods original purpose still stands ,and it will be acomplished, even though satan put a spanner in the works God has put things in place to fix it all

his will , will be done

Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. matthew 6;9-10