Omniscience and Free Will - Can both exist?

[Simon]

Usually this question is raised: If God knows I am going do something, how can I be free to do otherwise?

For me this is no problem. If God is outside of time, then to him all events occur at once - or, in our terms, have already happened. From my point of view, two possibilities were open to me. From god's point of view, one possibility got played out. From his perpective, past present and future are combined.

However, there is a more fundamental problem.

We can accept that God, being outside time, knows in full detail - with nothing left out - everything that happens. What about those things that don't happen? What about those things that would have happened if we'd chosen differently?

Free will requires that some experiences are had while others get avoided. Is it logically possible for any being to know in full detail - with nothing left out - experiences that were avoided by the excercise of free will?

I would make the following arguement. The reasoning has to be followed carefully.

1) Either something exists or it does not exist - but not both.

2) Either an experience has been had or it has not been had - but not both.

3) If an experience has been had by someone, it does exist.

4) If an experience has not been had by anyone, it does not exist.

5) For an experience to be known in every detail, it must be had by someone.

6) God can share all experiences that have been had by others.

7) God can have additional experiences that have never been had by others.

8) If any of God's experiences are absolutely indentical in every last detail to experiences that others could have had, then these experiences are in fact real.

9) If someone's possible experience is also a real experience, then it is an experience that belongs to that person - and must be experienced from that person's point view, even if shared by God.

10) Free will requires that some experiences are never had.

11) If there are some experiences that are never had, through the excercise of free will, then God does not have them either - for God can only have those experiences that are had.

12) If any being knows possible experiences with exactly the same vividity and detail as actual ones, then the distinction between the possible and the actual becomes so blurred as to be non-existent.

Conclusion 1: If there is no distinction between the possible and the actual, then everything that is possible happens and can be fully known. Enter omniscience, exit free will.

Conclusion 2: If there is a distinction between the possible and the actual, then certain experiences are had while others get avoided. The possible experiences cannot known by any being to the same degree as the actual ones. Enter free will, exit omniscience.


Summary: Free will puts a logical block on omnscience. Omniscience puts a logical block on free will. If there really is free will, then some possible experiences must be avoided and therefore can never be known. If there really is omnscience, then no possible experience is avoided and therefore can never be chosen.


Views are welcome.

[Serial Foreknowledge]

Originally Posted by Simon

Conclusion 2: If there is a distinction between the possible and the actual, then certain experiences are had while others get avoided. The possible experiences cannot known by any being to the same degree as the actual ones. Enter free will, exit omniscience.

I agree with this conclusion, except for the "exit omniscience" part. If a being knows all actual experiences, he is omniscient. He knows all there is to know. "Possible experiences" have no real meaning. "Possible experiences" enjoy no form of meaningful existance. It does not count against a being's omnicience if he knows nothing about "possible experiences".

[moseslmpg]

Firstly, you're proposing that you have totally free will, which is preposterous. When it comes down to it, you are a slave to many different things and only feel that you are free.

Secondly, this problem only arises if you think of time linearly. From an omniscient point of view, you have made every choice in the past, present, and future instantly. However the individual you, that you think you are, only experiences a linear path of choices.

Thirdly, even approached linearly omniscience does not affect free will, since it is total omniscience. It's not that you make a choice because the omniscient being knows, but because you make the choice, the omniscient being knows.

Fourthly, there would need to be some form of disclosure of future events from an omniscient being to even matter. If you don't know what the omniscient being knows, then whatever choice you make will be consistent with free will, because there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

Fifthly, nothing.

[InLove]

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Fourthly, there would need to be some form of disclosure of future events from an omniscient being to even matter. If you don't know what the omniscient being knows, then whatever choice you make will be consistent with free will, because there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

Never quite thought of it this way. Makes sense to me, though.

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Fifthly, nothing.

InPeace,
InLove

[Caimanson]

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Fourthly, there would need to be some form of disclosure of future events from an omniscient being to even matter. If you don't know what the omniscient being knows, then whatever choice you make will be consistent with free will, because there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

I agree, the issue with free will is not restricted by omniscience, but by omnipotence.

[Snoopy]

Time is a very slippery concept! What is it? Is it real? Is it really what? Is it just the movement of fingers on a clock and the turning of the pages of a calendar?

"Each moment in our life has both an experiential content and a temporal duration, and we never experience one without the other.
We cannot be separated from time: we ourselves are time. To say that we ourselves are time is to say we are always changing. Yet we are also always being in the present moment. Both constant change and our continuous presence in "now" are the complementary realities of time."

- http://www.ordinarymind.com/dharma_beingtime.html

Snoopy.

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Simon

Usually this question is raised: If God knows I am going do something, how can I be free to do otherwise?

For me this is no problem. If God is outside of time, then to him all events occur at once - or, in our terms, have already happened. From my point of view, two possibilities were open to me. From god's point of view, one possibility got played out. From his perpective, past present and future are combined.

However, there is a more fundamental problem.

We can accept that God, being outside time, knows in full detail - with nothing left out - everything that happens. What about those things that don't happen? What about those things that would have happened if we'd chosen differently?

Free will requires that some experiences are had while others get avoided. Is it logically possible for any being to know in full detail - with nothing left out - experiences that were avoided by the excercise of free will?

I would make the following arguement. The reasoning has to be followed carefully.

1) Either something exists or it does not exist - but not both.

2) Either an experience has been had or it has not been had - but not both.

3) If an experience has been had by someone, it does exist.

4) If an experience has not been had by anyone, it does not exist.

5) For an experience to be known in every detail, it must be had by someone.

6) God can share all experiences that have been had by others.

7) God can have additional experiences that have never been had by others.

8) If any of God's experiences are absolutely indentical in every last detail to experiences that others could have had, then these experiences are in fact real.

9) If someone's possible experience is also a real experience, then it is an experience that belongs to that person - and must be experienced from that person's point view, even if shared by God.

10) Free will requires that some experiences are never had.

11) If there are some experiences that are never had, through the excercise of free will, then God does not have them either - for God can only have those experiences that are had.

12) If any being knows possible experiences with exactly the same vividity and detail as actual ones, then the distinction between the possible and the actual becomes so blurred as to be non-existent.

Conclusion 1: If there is no distinction between the possible and the actual, then everything that is possible happens and can be fully known. Enter omniscience, exit free will.

Conclusion 2: If there is a distinction between the possible and the actual, then certain experiences are had while others get avoided. The possible experiences cannot known by any being to the same degree as the actual ones. Enter free will, exit omniscience.


Summary: Free will puts a logical block on omnscience. Omniscience puts a logical block on free will. If there really is free will, then some possible experiences must be avoided and therefore can never be known. If there really is omnscience, then no possible experience is avoided and therefore can never be chosen.


Views are welcome.

what does omniscience mean? I know what omnipotence (all powerful)

I do understand about free will. I know that free will and free choice is a myth. I know the law of the universe that are govern by the Lord. The Lord knows All. He knows the end from the beginning. The Law of the universe is (cause and effect). The Lord causes the circumstances for us and we choose which is the effect.


Darren

[sonoman]

Originally Posted by winner08

what does omniscience mean? I know what omnipotence (all powerful)

I do understand about free will. I know that free will and free choice is a myth. I know the law of the universe that are govern by the Lord. The Lord knows All. He knows the end from the beginning. The Law of the universe is (cause and effect). The Lord causes the circumstances for us and we choose which is the effect.


Darren

This is true. There is no free will. We are mortal and blind to the future but any truly omniscient entity would not be so disabled. It means our lives live out a preordained path that always was; we just think we make our choices because we can't see what lies ahead. So few Abrahamic believers know this truth yet you can find it recorded in Psalms

"Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them."

-Ps 139:16

God does leave clues to the future--the prophets bring it to the people. The prophecy line climaxes with the delivery by the Son of Man prophet of the identity of God and humanity's relationship with God.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by sonoman

There is no free will.

This is true. I didn't want to post this post but I had to.

s.

[sonoman]

See? There you are. I had to add my two cents worth--just had to, compelled as it were..

Believe me, if you knew what was coming next it takes all the fun out of life, like that bus barreling down on you crossing the sidewalk on the way to your honeymoon car..

[ChristineES]

Here is an idea that author Ted Dekker brought up in the book Blink. The protagonist in the story could see not only the future but all the different choices he made. There were literally thousands of choices he could make for a different or maybe the same outcome.

I am not saying I really believe this, but if it was true- God would know the outcome of each of our choices.

[winner08]

Originally Posted by Simon

Usually this question is raised: If God knows I am going do something, how can I be free to do otherwise?

For me this is no problem. If God is outside of time, then to him all events occur at once - or, in our terms, have already happened. From my point of view, two possibilities were open to me. From god's point of view, one possibility got played out. From his perpective, past present and future are combined.

However, there is a more fundamental problem.

We can accept that God, being outside time, knows in full detail - with nothing left out - everything that happens. What about those things that don't happen? What about those things that would have happened if we'd chosen differently?

Free will requires that some experiences are had while others get avoided. Is it logically possible for any being to know in full detail - with nothing left out - experiences that were avoided by the excercise of free will?

I would make the following arguement. The reasoning has to be followed carefully.

1) Either something exists or it does not exist - but not both.

2) Either an experience has been had or it has not been had - but not both.

3) If an experience has been had by someone, it does exist.

4) If an experience has not been had by anyone, it does not exist.

5) For an experience to be known in every detail, it must be had by someone.

6) God can share all experiences that have been had by others.

7) God can have additional experiences that have never been had by others.

8) If any of God's experiences are absolutely indentical in every last detail to experiences that others could have had, then these experiences are in fact real.

9) If someone's possible experience is also a real experience, then it is an experience that belongs to that person - and must be experienced from that person's point view, even if shared by God.

10) Free will requires that some experiences are never had.

11) If there are some experiences that are never had, through the excercise of free will, then God does not have them either - for God can only have those experiences that are had.

12) If any being knows possible experiences with exactly the same vividity and detail as actual ones, then the distinction between the possible and the actual becomes so blurred as to be non-existent.

Conclusion 1: If there is no distinction between the possible and the actual, then everything that is possible happens and can be fully known. Enter omniscience, exit free will.

Conclusion 2: If there is a distinction between the possible and the actual, then certain experiences are had while others get avoided. The possible experiences cannot known by any being to the same degree as the actual ones. Enter free will, exit omniscience.


Summary: Free will puts a logical block on omnscience. Omniscience puts a logical block on free will. If there really is free will, then some possible experiences must be avoided and therefore can never be known. If there really is omnscience, then no possible experience is avoided and therefore can never be chosen.


Views are welcome.

we have no free will. Your right to ask the question If God allready knows everything your going to do then how can you be free to choose. there's no way. you can not have uncaused choice or uncaused free will But we do make choices God creates the circumstances but we make the choice we choose. that is way We are responsible for our choices.

Darren

[Thomas]

Hi Simon —

Originally Posted by Simon

We can accept that God, being outside time, knows in full detail - with nothing left out - everything that happens. What about those things that don't happen? What about those things that would have happened if we'd chosen differently?

Well, until we fathom the mind of God, or the being of God, we can only speculate ... and my first speculation would be, if God is outside time, and 'happening' is something occurring in time, can we not say that God knows everything before it happens ... then it doesn't have to happen for God to know it ... indeed He knows every possible possibility, every permutation of every possibility ... whether any given permutation happens is actually secondary, and relevant to us, whereas to God it is very much 'after the fact'?

Then how about Quantum theory — what doesn't happen here, happens 'elsewhere' ... in a parallel universe?

Then again, God does not 'experience' as we do, because our 'experience' implies a whole raft of things: time, movement, change, novelty, etc., none of which are conditional upon the Divine Nature.

Just a thought ...

Anyway

Originally Posted by Simon

Free will requires that some experiences are had while others get avoided. Is it logically possible for any being to know in full detail - with nothing left out - experiences that were avoided by the excercise of free will?

I would argue:
1 - It is questionable whether we know our own experiences "in full detail - with nothing left out" — I suggest we don't, we select from a huge and continuous input of data. There's tons of detail we miss.
2 - God is not subject to the same conditioning as we are ... He doesn't miss a thing!

[QUOTE=Simon;74635]I would make the following argument:
5) For an experience to be known in every detail, it must be had by someone.
Must it? We do not act in ignorance all the time, our lives constantly furnish us with data on which to base our actions in the next moment, with often a fair degree of certainty — so much so we can posit inevitability ...

Imagine how much data God can bring to bear on the 'what if X does Y' question... ?

6) God can share all experiences that have been had by others.
I'm not sure we can say that — assuming a JudeoChristian God — we have to account for a whole number of determinations — the activity of the Divine Persons, for example, if we accept the Holy Trinity.

I would rather say God knows all that can be experienced, whether it is experienced or not is subsequent to God's knowing ... and whether it is experienced or not has no implication for God's knowing ...

8) If any of God's experiences are absolutely indentical in every last detail to experiences that others could have had, then these experiences are in fact real.
Oooh, not sure about that ... depends on how you determine reality? We are not the arbiter of what is real ... or rather, 'reality' for us is a subjective determination — two people see the same thing, but their experience of that same event will be different, but nevertheless real, to them.

9) If someone's possible experience is also a real experience, then it is an experience that belongs to that person - and must be experienced from that person's point view, even if shared by God.
I would say no. The experience you're talking of here is subjective. There is objective reality, which is the thing in itself, and subjective reality, which is a personal experience of it. The subjective experience will always be, to some degree, false — not wrong, nor a lie — but simply because the experience is not the thing experienced ...

11) If there are some experiences that are never had, through the excercise of free will, then God does not have them either - for God can only have those experiences that are had.
No, I disagree, as argued above.

12) If any being knows possible experiences with exactly the same vividity and detail as actual ones, then the distinction between the possible and the actual becomes so blurred as to be non-existent.
The distinction between unreal and real is an objective one — the trouble is that man lacks absolute objectivity, so for him even real experiences can become non-existent ...

+++

Originally Posted by Simon

Conclusion 1: If there is no distinction between the possible and the actual, then everything that is possible happens and can be fully known. Enter omniscience, exit free will.

Not at all.
You come to a crossroads in your life ... if you turn left, God knows what can and will happen, if you turn right, the same, if you proceed straight ahead, the same ... the fact that God knows the outcome and eventuality of all decisions does not detract from your freedom in making a decision.

God is omniscient, we are not, which is why we have free will. If we were omniscient, we would not possess free will, because we would always see the best and right choice ... there would only ever be one option to any given situation.

Originally Posted by Simon

Conclusion 2: If there is a distinction between the possible and the actual, then certain experiences are had while others get avoided. The possible experiences cannot known by any being to the same degree as the actual ones. Enter free will, exit omniscience.

Again, if man, yes, that has always been the case, we're not omniscient. But it's not the case for God. Because something is experienced by man does not make it more real for God, and if not experienced, does not make it less real.

Originally Posted by Simon

[COLOR=sienna]Summary: Free will puts a logical block on omnscience. Omniscience puts a logical block on free will.

No, I don't think you've proved that...

The fact that A knows the outcome of any possible choice does not limit B's option of choosing.

+++

Thomas

[Mirko]

omniscience would be all-knowing right?
all-powerfull might come into conflict with free will, unless you make a rule that the all-powerfull will use its own free will to let others use their free will

but omniscience or all-knowing does not interfere with free will
if the all-knowing are not all-powerfull they cannot stop others from using free will
if the all-knowing are all-powerfull they can chose not to stop others from using free will
those not all-knowing do not fully know if they are or are not doing something wrong, or right, so they have no reason not to use free will

so the all-knowing and free will are not in direct correlation, or in other words they have nothing to do with each other, even assuming they both exist

[winner08]

Sombody tell me how one can have a free will and free choice when the God who created us already knows what we are going to do. God effects all of our choices.
uncaused free will, uncaused free choice. choice without something or someone influences our choices. It is impossible to make a choice or will without cause.

Darren