on non-belief

[path_of_one]

As far as I understood it from previous conversation in my "Smorgasbord Religion" thread, Tao is more agnostic than atheist, more subjectivist than objectivist. But he prefers to put on atheist, objectivist clothing. Perhaps for its greater shock value, so it is more antithetical to established religion. I don't know.

At the end of the day, I just don't get why people presume that everyone in the world has to agree with their own views. I don't care if you're an atheist, a Hindu, or a shaman out in the rain forest of Brazil... all I ask is respect for my views and I offer respect for yours. I think the debates and all are nice if we really listen to one another, because resulting doubt creates a level of honesty in one's individual perspectives that tests one's own worldview.

But beyond that, it's just all pointless. Everyone just postures trying to win converts, to shore up their social position and feel better about themselves. Everyone looks for the "I agree!" or "You're right!" so they feel justified. LOL, Everyone tries to claim the "famous" and "good" people for their own so they have their own shiny examples of humanity at its finest. Somehow we hold these people up as incapable of the same dumb mistakes that we ourselves make due to their brilliance or compassionate acts, and they shore up our own position like pawns, mute before our maneuvering since most of the time they are conveniently dead.

And none of it matters. No matter how much agreement anyone racks up or how many famous, nifty people someone has in "their" camp... it's all utterly worthless outside of giving a sense of social belonging and a false sense of control and security.

The universe and God are what they are, and all of us are so limited it's unlikely any of us, whether operating from inspiriation or reason, intuition or data, has a clue. Meanwhile, life slips by and we waste it in indignation- righteous or rational. We ignore the basic underlying problem...

Being human, stuck with blindly trying to fill up our social and control needs. Through religion, through government, through science... pick our favorite. Then justify it, put down the others, form a little club. Eh, we're in good company... with all the other people in the world. We continue on our merry way of divisions, fears, hatred of each other- justifying them however we so choose- and completely ignoring the opportunity to rise above.

[17th Angel]

Well that was an interesting post coming from you lol....

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

As far as I understood it from previous conversation in my "Smorgasbord Religion" thread, Tao is more agnostic than atheist, more subjectivist than objectivist. But he prefers to put on atheist, objectivist clothing. Perhaps for its greater shock value, so it is more antithetical to established religion. I don't know.

At the end of the day, I just don't get why people presume that everyone in the world has to agree with their own views. I don't care if you're an atheist, a Hindu, or a shaman out in the rain forest of Brazil... all I ask is respect for my views and I offer respect for yours. I think the debates and all are nice if we really listen to one another, because resulting doubt creates a level of honesty in one's individual perspectives that tests one's own worldview.

But beyond that, it's just all pointless. Everyone just postures trying to win converts, to shore up their social position and feel better about themselves. Everyone looks for the "I agree!" or "You're right!" so they feel justified. LOL, Everyone tries to claim the "famous" and "good" people for their own so they have their own shiny examples of humanity at its finest. Somehow we hold these people up as incapable of the same dumb mistakes that we ourselves make due to their brilliance or compassionate acts, and they shore up our own position like pawns, mute before our maneuvering since most of the time they are conveniently dead.

And none of it matters. No matter how much agreement anyone racks up or how many famous, nifty people someone has in "their" camp... it's all utterly worthless outside of giving a sense of social belonging and a false sense of control and security.

The universe and God are what they are, and all of us are so limited it's unlikely any of us, whether operating from inspiriation or reason, intuition or data, has a clue. Meanwhile, life slips by and we waste it in indignation- righteous or rational. We ignore the basic underlying problem...

Being human, stuck with blindly trying to fill up our social and control needs. Through religion, through government, through science... pick our favorite. Then justify it, put down the others, form a little club. Eh, we're in good company... with all the other people in the world. We continue on our merry way of divisions, fears, hatred of each other- justifying them however we so choose- and completely ignoring the opportunity to rise above.

I think its ok to get converts as long as you do it as passive, friendly and humanly as possible. There used to be pagan religions that sacrificed people, Christianitys protelyzing pretty much abolished this and caused alot of postive social reform much afterwards and still on going today. Our actions are based on what we believe and as you mention our world view. If you happen to have a good one, protelyzing can be seen as a form of charity to me.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Well that was an interesting post coming from you lol....

I am feeling feisty this morning. LOL

I think I'm just fed up with all the labels and blame. Let's blame the Catholic church. No wait, the Muslims. No wait, let's blame the atheists. The Pagans. Blah blah blah.

At the end of the day, what's the point? People continue to be what they are. Some of them in all religions and non-religions are nice and help out and have concern about being goodness and truth and beauty. And others are biting and greedy and have concern about getting all they can no matter its expense to others. The common denominator is people and their individual choices. In practically any religion or non-religion, people can grow their capacity for love and compassion and wonder- all the highest potentials of humanity. And in practically any of them, people can justify horrific things.

People are people are people. The labels and groupings and whatnot mean nothing until instantiated by the individual and his or her goals and desires.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Everyone looks for the "I agree!"

I agree! In fact, I used to just agree with you but now I seem to read your posts and have moved onto an even higher plane of...agreement!

And none of it matters.

I couldn't agree more.

s.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I think its ok to get converts as long as you do it as passive, friendly and humanly as possible.

That's the problem, though, isn't it? Some groups say sometimes that the most humane, friendly way possible is at the tip of a sword. Pretty common in many religions' histories, and also in the history of secular governments like Communism that forced the end of religion.

I'm saying the ends don't justify the means. If we wish to offer our ideas in a passive, friendly, humane manner... great. But if we head off on the slippery slope of "as possible" because we're just so sure that our idea is the right one... yikes.

There used to be pagan religions that sacrificed people, Christianitys protelyzing pretty much abolished this and caused alot of postive social reform much afterwards and still on going today.

There were also pagan and shamanic religions that were relatively peaceful and sustainable. Christianity also pretty much abolished them, too.

I believe Christ's teachings, if really followed by any society, would have enormous positive social reform. But I have yet to see this actually happen on any large scale. They've been used to justify all kinds of really awful things as well as all kinds of really good things.

I see a big problem in that Christianity got mixed up with governmental power, whereas Christ's teachings were about liberation from oppression and ushering in of love. I see little following of Christ's teachings in the "White Man's Burden," the exterminating of many Native American groups and cultural imperialism toward the others, the wars against the people sin Europe with shamanic/Pagan religions, the Inquisition, and so forth.

Unlike Tao, I don't throw out what I see as perfectly good teachings from Christ just because people have abused them. But I also don't try to make it all nice and justifiable and act like Christian missionaries brought peace and prosperty to all. Most of the time, they brought (1) death and (2) some sort of colonialism and/or slavery. Conveniently, the converted had lots of resources to give the elite colonial powers of the day.

Our actions are based on what we believe and as you mention our world view. If you happen to have a good one, protelyzing can be seen as a form of charity to me.

Only if one's intentions are pure. My point is, they are rarely pure.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I agree! In fact, I used to just agree with you but now I seem to read your posts and have moved onto an even higher plane of...agreement!

I couldn't agree more.

s.

I feel so loved and such a sense of belonging!

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I feel so loved and such a sense of belonging!

I love the feistiness too.

s.

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

That's the problem, though, isn't it? Some groups say sometimes that the most humane, friendly way possible is at the tip of a sword. Pretty common in many religions' histories, and also in the history of secular governments like Communism that forced the end of religion.

Thats why I said as friendly, passive and humanly as possible.

If someone couldn't tell the difference then there psychopaths and should be put in a straight jacket.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I can see the wonders of atheism but I just don't understand the stuborness to reject anything supernatural which you can't even prove there isn't. This is why I could never step over the Agnostic line and into Atheism.

Simply there is no proof at all yet a lot of proof of fraud. But I have no desire to tell you or anyone else what to believe.

I am like some scotch terrier hard on the ankles, barking to be heard. I wish sometimes I did not appear so combatitive, it does not serve me very well, but I have an irrepressible style that seems to shine through my best intentions

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Simply there is no proof at all yet a lot of proof of fraud. But I have no desire to tell you or anyone else what to believe.

I am like some scotch terrier hard on the ankles, barking to be heard. I wish sometimes I did not appear so combatitive, it does not serve me very well, but I have an irrepressible style that seems to shine through my best intentions

Uhhh...ok let's go with that

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Simply there is ___ proof ... scotch ... I wish .. to shine

my bad...didn't I start a thread like this once?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Then you represent nothing. So your just a noise.

That is very generous of you. I say I represent myself, you say I represent nothing so I am just a noisy nothing. At last you made a genuine statement about me! I am a noisy nothing and I have every intention of continuing to be one!

So you are a user, who takes responsibility for nothing, but assumes the right to criticise everything. You contribute nothing ...

So now use of knowledge is some dark,dank evil. You know absolutely nothing about me yet you have this pathalogical desire to diminish me. Very noble.

You surely occupy an enviable position ... you add not a jot to the common good of humanity, yet you claim every right and good as if it were your own, every good is yours if you want it, every bad is someone else's fault ...

I do not feel the need to brag about what I have contributed, and i will not be forced to by you. Why do you seek so hard to undermine me as an individual? Because you have no defence, not even the sanction to attempt to mount a defence, for what is the recidivist and incessant sanction of genocide events by the CC. It makes you mad as hell. How dare he tell the TRUTH!!

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Simply there is no proof at all yet a lot of proof of fraud. But I have no desire to tell you or anyone else what to believe.

Yes there is fraud and hoaxes for sure. But in some cases the kind of proof your looking for is not tangible and when it is you say its a hoax or even if its clear its not a hoax you put it down to a rare probability occurring. Imagine if one day you finally have conclusive proof that such phenonmenons occur, then what? You'll just call it a a part of sceince that is unexplored by man yet, defing the cause of the phenonmenon as you did in the first place. The whole point is to simply believe its that leap of faith, when your thoughts are im complete unity and contentment with what your looking for.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Yes there is fraud and hoaxes for sure. But in some cases the kind of proof your looking for is not tangible and when it is you say its a hoax or even if its clear its not a hoax you put it down to a rare probability occurring. Imagine if one day you finally have conclusive proof that such phenonmenons occur, then what? You'll just call it a a part of sceince that is unexplored by man yet, defing the cause of the phenonmenon as you did in the first place. The whole point is to simply believe its that leap of faith, when your thoughts are im complete unity and contentment with what your looking for.

I used to have a space for that stuff. But my own personal experience is it was wishful thinking. On the scale of probability I found it to be vastly outweighed by the rational explanations. Really in the end I was forced to reject it. It was the only rational conclusion to be drawn from my study of it.
Strange stuff does happen but when it is proven to happen its no longer superstition.