Origins of Jesus Christ

[mens_sana]

Originally Posted by mens_sana

juantoo: What on earth is a nice Jewish guy like Jesus doing in a superstitious wonderland fantasy playground like Paganism to begin with?

Mens_Sana: He was born into it. That's what that part of the world was like at the time, not that this world today is altogether different.

juantoo3: I'm not so sure that's quite accurate...

Mens_Sana: Try reading my reply with a minimalist eye. The nice Jewish guy was born into a superstitious Mediterranean world. If his followers weren't fully Hellenized, then the third person they preached to was, and that's when the "explanations" of his life started gaining a Pagan vocabulary.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Avi

So CZ, Juan has hit on an important aspect of your question. Calling a holy book, which embodies the entire history of a religious group, a legend, fable, myth, takes away from the greatness of that book. It makes it sound like less than it really is.

Avi, I believe our debate was focused on Genesis. But if you'd like to expand this to now include the entire Bible, I'm game.

Originally Posted by Avi

So, CZ, I see it as similar to many of the political correctness issues that you and I do agree on. Why would someone belittle, denigrate, deminish a classic text which has brought so much insight to the world the last 3,000 years?

Perhaps you haven't heard my take on this matter. At the risk of repeating myself I will sum it up again...

I have no interest in the religion you practice in private, in your home, with a group or in a church. The only time I become involved in these issues are in a forum designed for the very purpose of exchanging ideas and debate or in the public arena of politics and secular civil rights.

While there are many different faiths being practiced in the United States, when it comes to the current debate of gay marriage and civil rights, it's the Bible that's being quoted as a reason to deny these rights.

In our schools there is a faction of Christians who are determined to treat Intelligent Design on a par with Evolution. They are not content to teach this concept in their homes and churches, but seek to include this faith-based "science" in secular public institutions.

These are just two examples where Christian Faith is being pushed into the public arena. Had Christianity remained in the churches, homes and hearts of those practicing it, I'd have nothing to say. But when it's used to determine our school curriculum and civil secular laws then it opens itself up to debate and scrutiny.

Therefore it becomes an issue whether the Bible is based upon history, fact and the divine word of God or legend, superstition and the fallible interpretation of human beings. Therefore Christians should not be surprised to find their holy books and institutions questioned.

Originally Posted by Avi

When a poster arrives with what looks like a predetermined agenda, as it appears might be the case with Eccles, there is not really much learning which is going to occur on either side.

There isn't any member of IO who doesn't come to the forum with predetermined beliefs, and whether anybody learns anything in these threads is not for you or I to decide. The only thing we can do is put forth our most cogent argument and hope for the best. I never expect to sway anybody with my posts.

The forum is less an opportunity to change another person's mind then it is an opportunity to hone our own, to compel ourselves to contemplate the issues, to think about ways to formulate arcane concepts into words and to bravely put these ideas forth to be scrutinized by others. Any other results occur on their own, in their own time and not by our design or intention.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by mens_sana

Mens_Sana: Try reading my reply with a minimalist eye. The nice Jewish guy was born into a superstitious Mediterranean world. If his followers weren't fully Hellenized, then the third person they preached to was, and that's when the "explanations" of his life started gaining a Pagan vocabulary.

OK, there is quite a bit of argument to that end surrounding Paul. I suppose to some degree there may be merit, but I still reserve a modicum of doubt, at least in the initial period between Jesus' execution and the sack of Jerusalem by the Romans. After that period, it seems Nero had it in for the Christians who were still a fringe sect of Judaism at that point. After Bar Kochba and the forced diaspora, I can see how Christianity may have gone "underground" and in that period gain the "Pagan vocabulary" as you put it. But Rome was wishy-washy in its persecution of Christians...there were periods in the first couple hundred years when being Christian was no more a political liability than being of any other religious persuasion. And then there were the 3 major and several minor/local persecutions during which it was a heavy liability to be Christian. "Fully Hellenized" I am thinking is a bit of a misnomer, certainly there was Greek influence across Palestine for a couple hundred years prior to Jesus, the OT Bible was even written in Greek as the Septuigent. So certainly there was Greek influence. But the Jews have throughout their history maintained a cultural distinction that set them apart even while they played nice in an effort to blend in. There have always been certain thresholds the Jews would never cross, culturally speaking. And Christians were Jews, at least until Constantine around 313AD. So there is this huge question of "degree of influence," and I really doubt the Pagan influence was greater than the Jewish influence prior to Constantine.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

There's nothing wrong with allegory or legends as story telling devices. We just get into trouble when we mistake them for fact.

Ah! At last a point of agreement between us.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

I believe our debate was focused on Genesis.

OK then, my mistake, I thought we were discussing the Origins of Jesus Christ. At least that's what the thread is titled, and that's what I understood the gist of the discussion to be while I was participating.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

OK then, my mistake, I thought we were discussing the Origins of Jesus Christ.

You probably were. I jumped in late when I saw the post regarding Genesis as legend. Sorry about any confusion.

I'm happy to see from your previous post that we were able to find agreement on something. All is now right with the world.

[Ella]

As for Juan and the tinfoil hat... you can put it back on...

slavespecies .com not my site. This guy does not think he is wearing a tinfoil hat. I put the extra space (you need to take it out to access the address) into the link to allow it to be posted. The content is an idea that is directly related to the subject matter. ie a possible alien creator. It is a new and current idea.

[Ella]

Interesting that the bible speaks of the lion lying down with the lamb so apparently your longing for a 'no harm' creation is a very old one. Now is that a concept for the future of the religion or do you think it applied to Eden as well?

[Ella]

Sorry the posts above refer to the posts no 57 and 97. I have been reading from the beginning of the thread. I hope you don't mind me commenting as I go.

[Ella]

[QUOTE=AndrewX;157197]Yes, Juan I do. Thx, btw.

Evil I think is within man's heart, and inasmuch as it exists externally, it is also able to access our lives

Post 115 and the preceding discussion.

The experiential 'proof' of past lives etc is the same as the experiential 'proof' found by people of all religion. God apparently draws near, they feel different, sometimes act or speak differently see visions, hear things, etc. I believe that all of this is the interaction of our conscious with our unconscious mind and those in interaction with every other part of our being, emotion, physical body etc. I do not believe there is anything metaphysical about them. After all surgeons and scientists who touch or stimulate a certain part of the brain cause people to have metaphysical experiences relating to their beliefs.

Prior to this post you guys were talking about perfection and evil. You know the yin and yang symbol, each side with a spot of the 'other colour' in them. Together they make perfection. I am coming to to idea that 'perfection' is not our modern, newly evolved and evolving idea of what is good. This is after all a totally subjective notion. We perceive death and destruction as evil but we still don't know if dying isn't the very best thing that will ever happen to us. As one of you mentioned death is also necessary for some kinds of new life. Perhaps perfection is the very balance of good and evil.

[Ella]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I disagree Chris. I think there are absolutes and black and white.

Just like life (no oxygen/death), there are issues pertaining to God that we can not exclude or ignore, or debase as fallicy.

It would not be logical, at best.

post no 125 How can there be issues pertaining to god that we cannot exclude or ignore logically if we cannot logically even know there is a god? That makes no sense.

[Ella]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

...which leads us right back to the beginning question. What are the origins of Jesus Christ? For all our opinions, they are all based on a fact, called the Bible (and what it teaches us about Jesus the Christ).

Afterall, without the Bible, we wouldn't know Jesus from a hole in the ground...right?

no 139 which only goes to prove that he is not almighty god. A human noted by history perhaps.

[Ella]

Post 175 [QUOTE=eccles;206082]I would like to introduce some satyrical comedy here to illustrate how the Bible can be misinterpreted.

It is a reading from the "Life of Brian".

Wonderful, wonderful, love this post. My theory on the bible in terms of interpretation is that all meaning is constructed, heard through the noise of our culture amongst other things this means that as there are 6 billion people on earth so too must there be 6 billion interpretations possible of religious texts. Since god has done nothing to secure the meaning he intended the bible cannot be absolute truth. In fact there can be no absolute truths only individual understanding thereof.

[Ella]

Hehe right I have now read the entire saga. I do not profess to be well read academically so the ancient history behind all the religious text is not known to me. Outside of the bible I know little about the texts of the day and I came here hoping to be enlightened about the possibility of there having been a Nazarene son of a carpenter, famous person in his day who established a following of people which may have led to his deification (if that is a real word) and the subsequent writing of the new testament. Considering Jesus wrote nothing and all written about him is hearsay written through the perspectives of time and what people wanted to believe perhaps reading Paul on Jesus and finding out what his agenda was might offer more of an understanding as to why this guy landed up as the 'saviour of the world' assuming based on Josephus that he existed.

Oh and btw if he didn't how did the story ever get started? Were there many wandering teachers in that day and the bible is a summary of all the diff teachings rolled into one. Is it possible that Paul with his brilliant analytical mind was trying to write a book to reformed Judaism to steer away from the nasty almighty of the OT? That he used the evolving dissatifaction with Judaism present in his day (as for instance the green/organic/recyling/conservation based is today, ie a rising consciousness of the need to change materialism and consumerism) if there was a rising consciousness like that in his day perhaps he took all those ideas and melded them into something he saw as a viable evolution for Judaism. ???

I think the fact that there is no god definable or one personally interested in this world is proved by the fact that that being has never safe guarded the meaning of the bible. That being apparently doesn't see His Word in the same light as christians do!

[mens_sana]

Ella,
Notice the icon in the lower right corner of the post you're looking at. Try it out. You can always delete what might be irrelevant.