Others' suffering = our own? - Page 2

Netti-Netti · 08-26-2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toujour_333

.....when you understand emptiness fully, then one leaves the self behind. at that point all sufferring is ended.

My sense is that an important goal in Buddhism is to withdraw desire in order to minimize the impact of uncontrollable situations in terms of stress and disappointment. The idea is to get rid of dukhka by getting rid of desire. It is unclear whether we ever achieve this in any final 100% way.

We need desire to function. The key, it seems to me, is to morph the basic drive into something creative, constructive, and helpful. This is a challenge principally because we live in an evolutionary world and situations can be very complex. My hunch is that ambiguous situations tend to contribute to ego-clinging, which interferes with the realization of the emptiness of self and phenomena. Accordingly, I see Nirvana as more of an existential trajectory rather than an end state. Practically speaking, it is unclear whether one needs to be 100% enlightened in order to be compassionate.

Quote:

be well in peace

You too!

seattlegal · 08-26-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Practically speaking, it is unclear whether one needs to be 100% enlightened in order to be compassionate.

If so, wouldn't that limit intention (and therefore karma) only to the enlightened?

Netti-Netti · 08-26-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

If so, wouldn't that limit intention (and therefore karma) only to the enlightened?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

seattlegal · 08-26-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

Hehehe! I should have known better!

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti
Practically speaking, it is unclear whether one needs to be 100% enlightened in order to be compassionate.

This could probably make Buddha's short list of "Unconjecturables" that would bring madness and vexation to to those who conjecture about them. Nevermind.

Netti-Netti · 08-26-2008, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Hehehe! I should have known better!

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti
Practically speaking, it is unclear whether one needs to be 100% enlightened in order to be compassionate.

This could probably make Buddha's short list of "Unconjecturables" that would bring madness and vexation to to those who conjecture about them. Nevermind.

Aww, not having a question answered makes the list longer!

Zenda71 · 08-26-2008, 08:56 PM

Everyone is compassionate, even if they don't continually manifest it like a Buddha would. To me, every time you help someone with their best intentions in mind and your best intentions in your heart, you are being compassionate.

Vajradhara · 08-27-2008, 07:32 AM

Namaste Netti-Netti,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

My sense is that an important goal in Buddhism is to withdraw desire in order to minimize the impact of uncontrollable situations in terms of stress and disappointment. The idea is to get rid of dukhka by getting rid of desire. It is unclear whether we ever achieve this in any final 100% way.

many beings have come to this same conclusion though i would suggest that such a conclusion has rather missed the salient features of the Dharma as it is traditionally expounded.

the ending of dukkha is not brought about through the ending of desire, the ending of dukkha is brought about by the ending of ignorance.

Quote:

Practically speaking, it is unclear whether one needs to be 100% enlightened in order to be compassionate.

they are, within the traditional canon, different things. Bodhichitta, the compassionate, caring mind which extends outwards towards all beings is different than Awakening and Liberation which come about through the development of, to phrase it somewhat ackwardly, compassion and wisdom. though it must be said that the Buddha also taught that it was possible for a being to Awaken and attain Liberation without awakening their Bodhichitta and the quality of the Awakening and Liberation is of the same taste as that of all other sentient beings and Buddhas.

there is a great deal of misconception regarding the Buddha Dharma and the topic of desire which can lead to all sorts of conclusions which either make the Dharma out to be hardly more intellectually gratifying than a Disney book or require a convoluted metaphysic to explain. in my estimation this is due to a poor choice of translation words.

the Buddha taught that it was a certain type of desire not desire, per se, which is problematic. indeed, we are encouraged to rouse our desire to practice the Dharma and thus the use of desire in ones practice is not a worry. it is, unfortunately, true that Sanskrit has a more robust vocabulary than English and thus there are not the same equivalent terms. i actually see this to be changing in society as a whole but that's a conversation for another time.

in any event the particular sort of desire that is problematic is termed "tanha" in Sanskrit and would have the closest equivalent in English as 'craving' which carries a stronger psychological element than simple desire.

metta,

~v

Vajradhara · 08-27-2008, 07:36 AM

Namaste Zenda,

thank you for the post and welcome back to the forum. i missed your style

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenda71

Everyone is compassionate, even if they don't continually manifest it like a Buddha would. To me, every time you help someone with their best intentions in mind and your best intentions in your heart, you are being compassionate.

indeed this is one of the more contrasting differences between Buddha Dharma and traditions which posit that sentient beings are inherently flawed in some manner and incapable of expression of Bodhichitta.

besides...the manifestation of compassion is not what distinguishes a Buddha from other beings anyways.

metta,

~v

Zenda71 · 08-27-2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Zenda,

thank you for the post and welcome back to the forum. i missed your style

Thanks vaj. Missed you too.

Quote:

indeed this is one of the more contrasting differences between Buddha Dharma and traditions which posit that sentient beings are inherently flawed in some manner and incapable of expression of Bodhichitta.

This is very encouraging, I think.

Quote:

besides...the manifestation of compassion is not what distinguishes a Buddha from other beings anyways.

metta,

~v

In the absolute, there's no giver, no receiver, and nothing given, right?

Ouch... head hurts. I'm completely out of my depth, instead of the usual only partly...

Vajradhara · 08-29-2008, 07:35 AM

Namaste Zenda,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenda

This is very encouraging, I think.

i completely agree

Quote:

In the absolute, there's no giver, no receiver, and nothing given, right?

Ouch... head hurts. I'm completely out of my depth, instead of the usual only partly...

that's a very concise summation of the Prajnaparamita Sutra! spot on! i was speaking in the relative sense with regards to the role that Buddhas have in the initial Turning of the Wheel on a particular world system when the Dharma is not currently present but i like your answer better

metta,

~vajra

Zenda71 · 08-29-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i was speaking in the relative sense with regards to the role that Buddhas have in the initial Turning of the Wheel on a particular world system when the Dharma is not currently present...

metta,

~vajra

Oops.

Z

Netti-Netti · 08-29-2008, 08:25 PM

Greetings to Vajradhara,

I meant to ask you:

The Buddha taught detachment, cessation, and calmness. How are these practices related to ending of dukkha ?

Nick_A · 08-30-2008, 05:31 AM

SG writes:

Alright, Bodhisattvas postpone the complete ending of their own suffering (Nibbana) in order to help others end their suffering.

A lot of ex wives are frustrated Bodhisattva wannabees who refused to enter Nibbana and stop suffering until they taught their husbands how to end their suffering.

seattlegal · 08-30-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick_A

SG writes:

Alright, Bodhisattvas postpone the complete ending of their own suffering (Nibbana) in order to help others end their suffering.

A lot of ex wives are frustrated Bodhisattva wannabees who refused to enter Nibbana and stop suffering until they taught their husbands how to end their suffering.

ROFLMAO!

Netti-Netti · 09-07-2008, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Greetings to Vajradhara,

I meant to ask you:

The Buddha taught detachment, cessation, and calmness. How are these practices related to ending of dukkha ?

The mind is more receptive to insight when calmed. In other words, emotional self control -- involving a process of freeing oneself from attachments/aversions -- is in direct interest of gaining insight. The insight, in turn, can help manage or minimize dukkha.