Palin: Round Two

[earl]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

It does disqualify her in YOUR eyes and that what this is about.

It is an awesome burden being a liberal. You are condemned to pointing out the fallacies of an ungrateful public. I feel your pain. It must be truly tedious with someone like me.

Why not just admitting when you screw up rather than insisting on some PC runaround? We all screw up. It does take courage to admit it and in liberalism where image means everything, such courage isn't the norm.

metta. Earl

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

It does disqualify her in YOUR eyes and that what this is about.

That is absolutely not what he said. He said he found her amateurishness attractive; but DESPITE that, he would never vote for her. When you asked what it was that disqualified her, he said it was policy positions, which is an entirely different matter.

Originally Posted by Nick_A

It must be truly tedious with someone like me.

You got that right.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Sarah Palin

Sitting here in these chairs that I’m going to be proposing but in working with these governors who again on the front lines are forced to and it’s our privileged obligation to find solutions to the challenges facing our own states every day being held accountable, not being just one of many just casting votes or voting present every once in a while, we don’t get away with that. We have to balance budgets and we’re dealing with multibillion dollar budgets and tens of thousands of employees in our organizations.

Nick, can you parse this for us?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Q: “Recent polls have shown a fifth of Americans can’t locate the U.S. on a world map. Why do you think this is?”

Miss Teen South Carolina, Lauren Caitlin Upton:

“I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uhmmm, some people out there in our nation don’t have maps and uh, I believe that our, I, education like such as uh, South Africa, and uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and I believe that they should, uhhh, our education over here in the US should help the US, uh, should help South Africa, it should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future, for us.”

Is it just a beauty pageant thing? Miss Upton still managed third runner up- probably because she's smokin' hot. It must be nice being pretty. Everybody just stares at your ass and tits and it doesn't matter how dumb you sound.

Chris

[Netti-Netti]

Just some quick thoughts. This is mostly my reaction to Palin interview material from last week.

Much of Ms. Palin's material is obviously scripted. This might explain why she seems disconnected from most of her material - as though she doesn't have a feel for the concepts she's dealing with. Indeed, much her verbiage seems like babble - a substitute for purposeful discourse and a smokescreen that hides the fact that she has no real understanding of the issues and no insights to offer on any substantive matter.

As though she is aspiring to ever greater hights of sublime banality, Ms. Palin fires off one cliché after another with no rhyme or reason. It's very hard for her to avoid the impression that she doesn't know what she is talking about when she jumps from one half-baked talking point to the next. From an impression management perspective, her narrative resembles a small town girl trying to convince everyone at a country saloon of her sophisticated urban identity. The main difference is that Ms. Palin is using the media environment rather than a local bar to stage her self esteem with this kind of imagery.

You wonder whether she actually believes that she is being reliably self-enhancing by her continuous reliance on a jumble of RW talking points and canned management lingo. The image act is compromised by her inability to anticipate simple rejoinders to her ill-informed claims. She seems vaguely aware of this limitation, which I think accounts for her tendency to gravitate towards value statements about the importance of executive goals that no one could reasonably disagree on, like about political leaders having a responsibility to take care of their constituents.

There's something to be said for mastering the bloody obvious. But as you might expect, credibility problem arise when Ms. Palin pretends that there are no controversies on certain important issues- --like when she suggests the US occupation of Iraq is part of what it is to "keep America safe" even though it has become a breeding ground for terrorists and has provided justification for anti-American sentiment. When she talks this way, she in effect repeats the lie that led to the destruction of a sovereign nation and helped bankrupt the US. That anyone would be capable of a glib delivery of such nonsense in a brazenly naive appeal to patriotism at this point is mind blowing.

The so-called "Palin phenomenon" is troubling because it represents a shameless glorification of blatant ignorance and crass political ambition. She comes across as an imposter whose only interest in participating in the political process is to gain power for power's sake. She clearly has no vision that would enable her to make good use of power in any long term and planned way. Her executive stylings and her reliance on corporate management speak dealing with executive logistics is just a coverup for that. To boot, the focus is obviously misguided, idolatrous, and gimmicky because it highlights procedure and status rather than the value of what will be achieved in the end. Generally, people who are always talking about how they're going to be providing deliverables don't do much delivering. They're just blathering. In Ms. Palin's case, the blather is almost random. See the above Bob x post #33.

Palin's political ambition is evidently out of control. It has obviously been occupying her more than than her duties as governor of Alaska lately. McCain disappeared after the election. But last week Palin did more interviews than she had done through the entire presidential campaign.

Evidently Palin is still campaigning - she's still campaigning for herself. She conducts herself this way even though the election is over and even though the Republicans just want her to go away because she's so self-important and annoying. As for me, every time I hear her speak I'm less convinced of her ability to get real results and make real progress.

I don't understand how anyone could expect Sarah Palin to be taken seriously. In the Presidential Nightmare thread, I raised questions as to whether her image act as a Reformist or Moral Hero has any basis. One of the corruption episodes which is cited in order to fill out this mythic imagery of her prowess seems to have been handled entirely without being in any way influenced by Ms. Palin. Her complaint was an aside. And it was dismissed.

I'm not sure what all Gov Palin has achieved in other areas since she became governor. But it seems she dropped the ball on the corruption issues. Her handpicked Attorney General, Talis Colberg launched a state investigation into bribery and conspiracy involving Republican legislators and energy executives only after the FBI released a report announcing guilty pleas from VECO executives in a matter that had been under investigation for some time. And yes, that's the same Talis Colberg who actually told 11 state employees to disobey legislative subpoena in connection with Troopergate - an action that is unlawful and punishable pursuant to Alaska state law.

So when is Ms. Palin going to file a complaint regarding this matter with the Alaska Bar? Mmmm.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by bob x

That is absolutely not what he said. He said he found her amateurishness attractive; but DESPITE that, he would never vote for her. When you asked what it was that disqualified her, he said it was policy positions, which is an entirely different matter.
You got that right.

Bob, you are so deep in the choir you literally do not make sense. There is no DESPITE. Earl wrote

I think what this indicates is the same quaity the made Palin attractive to some: her rank amateurishness, which some translated into genuineness. I could appreciate that about her though would never vote for the lady for any office. The irony of course is for her to have any possible future political relevance on a national stage she will have to become much more knowledgeable about the issues and the political process itself. The trick then would be for her to still look like an amateur and not at the same time in order to tap into the basis for some of her initial appeal. earl

There is no DESPITE. I'm not being critical because as a man I would often think the same. This post only refers to amateurishness that is attractive and not policy positions. I can appreciate an attractive woman's naivety to puff up my ego as much as the next guy but I wouldn't vote for her in a position of responsibility. I know that Sarah is far from naive.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Earl

I think what this indicates is the same quaity the made Palin attractive to some: her rank amateurishness, which some translated into genuineness. I could appreciate that about her though would never vote for the lady for any office. The irony of course is for her to have any possible future political relevance on a national stage she will have to become much more knowledgeable about the issues and the political process itself. The trick then would be for her to still look like an amateur and not at the same time in order to tap into the basis for some of her initial appeal.

I understand what you're saying here Earl. The "just folks" popularism was spun to make her sounding dumb to Gibson and Couric seem like just the latest example of bias in the "liberal media." I played golf with some friends in our Lion's Club charity golf tourney this last weekend. Being the only Dem, and having to listen to the barrage of negro jokes that have run around since Obama won (as our RW friends work out their angst and guilt) I naturally had to rip on Palin. What I got was a consensus of, "she just sounds dumb."

Chris

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

There is no DESPITE.

I did not put "despite" in quotes; I know that isn't the word he used. He used "though", which also means that the two ideas are in opposition; for example, "I did vote for Obama though I know his resume is slim" does not mean that the slimness of his resume was a reason for my vote; quite the opposite. Similarly, "I find Palin's amateurishness attractive though I would not vote for her" quite plainly indicates that his reasons for not ever wanting to vote for her are a quite separate matter from her amateurishness.

November 18, 2008 -- Andy Borowitz
Obama’s Use of Complete Sentences Stirs Controversy
Stunning Break with Last Eight Years

In the first two weeks since the election, President-elect Barack Obama has broken with a tradition established over the past eight years through his controversial use of complete sentences, political observers say.

Millions of Americans who watched Mr. Obama's appearance on CBS' "Sixty Minutes" on Sunday witnessed the president-elect's unorthodox verbal tick, which had Mr. Obama employing grammatically correct sentences virtually every time he opened his mouth.

But Mr. Obama's decision to use complete sentences in his public pronouncements carries with it certain risks, since after the last eight years many Americans may find his odd speaking style jarring.

According to presidential historian Davis Logsdon of the University of Minnesota , some Americans might find it "alienating" to have a President who speaks English as if it were his first language.

"Every time Obama opens his mouth, his subjects and verbs are in agreement," says Mr. Logsdon. "If he keeps it up, he is running the risk of sounding like an elitist."

The historian said that if Mr. Obama insists on using complete sentences in his speeches, the public may find itself saying, "Okay, subject, predicate, subject predicate - we get it, stop showing off."

The President-elect's stubborn insistence on using complete sentences has already attracted a rebuke from one of his harshest critics, Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska .

"Talking with complete sentences there and also too talking in a way that ordinary Americans like Joe the Plumber and Tito the Builder can't really do there, I think needing to do that isn't tapping into what Americans are needing also," she said.

[Nick_A]

Bob

Use "though" if you like, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is though even though amateurishness is attractive in a woman, they cannot be trusted for office. Just like CCS said: "Is it just a beauty pageant thing?"

Just like any man, I know that different women are useful for different purposes. I like and appreciate fine female rump as well as the next guy and it is quite useful. However, I agree it cannot be trusted as a sole attribute for office.. I just don't believe that Sarah is limited to being fine rump but rather is also an intelligent woman of character that does quality one for office far more than these plastic politicians that are openly smooth talking hypocrites.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Just like any man, I know that different women are useful for different purposes. I like and appreciate fine female rump as well as the next guy and it is quite useful. However, I agree it cannot be trusted as a sole attribute for office.. I just don't believe that Sarah is limited to being fine rump but rather is also an intelligent woman of character that does quality one for office far more than these plastic politicians that are openly smooth talking hypocrites.

Fine female rump, quite useful.

Wow.

Sarah is not limited to being fine rump, intelligent.

Wow.

Nick, weren't you going on and on about sexism a while back?

[earl]

Hey, I thought Nick's line about a fine female rump being "useful" was sort of amusing. earl

[Nick_A]

Path

Have you really ever thought about what sexism or racism really is? It isn't the modern liberal BS about noticing differences but rather the attempt to injure another in one form or another through the perverted perception of differences.

Vive Le Difference!

If a woman has five kids and I remark that she still has a cute butt, it is not sexist, it is flattery.

I never understood the depth and beauty of the evolved female heart until reading Simone Weil. She is truly one of the most beautiful women I've ever had the chance to become aware of. Her beauty is inside and in the quality of her being. She is asexual so her butt doesn't matter.

As a man there are some women we can enjoy sack time with and others we can only show gratitude for awakening us to something the male heart lacks. Of course there are many gradations in-between.

What you call sexism is really teaching people how to lie or to pretend what is obvious doesn't exist. Being aware is not sexism. Sexism is the abuse from not being aware and reacting through acquired defense mechanisms.to retain ones feeling of prestige.

As for me, I hope to always appreciate cute female rump and also be aware enough to show gratitude when women appear with an evolved heart. They serve different purposes as they must. It is only a PC lie for a man not to appreciate these differences.

Yes Earl, the female rump is quite uselful and it is the sign of a real educated man that knows how to use it properly.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

The bottom line is though even though amateurishness is attractive in a woman, they cannot be trusted for office.

No: THIS PARTICULAR WOMAN cannot be trusted for office. Nobody (except you) said "they" cannot be trusted for office.

Originally Posted by Nick_A

I just don't believe that Sarah is limited to being fine rump but rather is also an intelligent woman of character that does quality one for office far more than these plastic politicians that are openly smooth talking hypocrites.

She is dumber than a bag of hammers, and her character is grasping and vindictive.

[Pathless]

Nick, that is certainly a thought-provoking and interesting assessment of sexism and racism. I agree with some of what you say, but as a feminist, I can't help but take issue with your rather blatant objectifications of women.

Originally Posted by Nick_A

I never understood the depth and beauty of the evolved female heart until reading Simone Weil. She is truly one of the most beautiful women I've ever had the chance to become aware of. Her beauty is inside and in the quality of her being. She is asexual so her butt doesn't matter.

Simone Weil interests me. Are you sure that she was an asexual person? I do not know much about her. Remember that just because one does not find a person physically attractive does not automatically make them asexual. Do you think she ever had and enjoyed sex?

As far as the comment about cute butts being flattery, I imagine that is debatable. Some women may indeed find it flattering, while others may feel it is inappropriate. Such uninvited flattery makes some women uncomfortable, I believe. Do you often comment on the cuteness of a stanger's ass to that stranger? How does this play out for you?

Also, are there qualities that the human heart lacks due specifically to the biological sex of the person? Perhaps this is more of a gender issue, with many gradations in-between the two biological sexes and polar genders, male and female, masculine and feminine. Might it be possible for someone in a female body to have a heart that integrates both masculine and feminine qualities? Is the same thing possible for a person with male genitalia? What about other gradations, such as a butch lesbian who may feel more masculine than feminine, or an effeminate man who identifies with more stereotypically feminine qualities?

And what does all of this mean to the supposed differences between "male" and "female"?

[Netti-Netti]

Some might think of Ms. Palin as a bit of a tomboy given her willingness to try hunting and such. Much of her demeanor does suggest an overt attempt to be "one of the boys" - or better still, topping the good old boys. I can see why this kind of imagery would lend itself to idealization among people who are attracted to power.

I think my reaction to her is that she is too politically contrived: an attempt to hybridize stereotyped social types that aren't necessarily compatible - Beauty Queen, Tough Guy, Good Mother, and Supreme Ruler.

It's possible for someone to be fully functioning at many levels, but I don't think Ms. Palin is that person. I think a large part of her identity as a public figure is fabrication and PR.