Paradise and the Fall

[WHKeith]

[The myth, continued.] It’s tough to learn and grow and *become* when You are All that Is. Ungrowing, unlearning, unmoving is stasis . . . You might as well be dead. Many human myths see the Divine dividing Itself into many facets, many separate Be-ings, beginning with a separation of male from female and ending with a vast host of intelligence, all One, but all separate manifestations of that One. The distinction may be meaningless in human terms.

It also created within itself All that Is. And within that All arose or was created life, which was to be the universe’s way of knowing itself and, by extension, the way the Divine would ultimately know Itself. Indeed, someday, one tiny bit of that life would ultimately formulate its own myth, which it would call quantum physics, and which would declare that life itself was necessary to bring the universe into manifest reality from instant to instant . . . ah, but that’s another story.

In order to know all that is and could be, the Divine allowed parts of itself to inhabit the physical bodies that were the expression of life within creation. Call it the soul, call it the Divine spark, call it the elemental life force . . . but whatever it was it was the Divine within us. While these bits of life force remained a part of the Divine, they were by deliberate self-intent at least partially sundered from that part of the Divine—not as punishment, but to allow those separate souls, through struggle and challenge and love to make of themselves more than they were, to evolve, to learn, to discover, to grow.

The physical bodies would wear out and die in a cosmic instant; the souls would return to the Divine Source, wiser—hopefully—for their experience, and able to allow the Divine to experience Life. Life became a kind of school where souls were incarnate to learn specific lessons—how to love, how to learn, how to show compassion, how to confront evil . . . and there *was* evil because some souls didn’t deal with life as well as others did. Greed, lust, ignorance, a hunger for power, a hunger for being right . . . Separated from the Source, even partially, meant that these issues would arise as an aspect of competition.

As each soul returned to the source, it might review its past lessons on earth—be shown how THIS decision could have been too hasty, how THAT one limited the soul’s own growth, how this OTHER one showed love and compassion at their most holy best. There was no sense of sin or punishment here, only lessons to be learned. The closest to any system of award and punishment that might exist as a governing framework might be called the law of karma: our actions have repercussions; what we do to and for others will be visited upon us, as surely as action generates reaction.

The soul would be born again, again with direct memory of past lessons blocked, at least partially. Why? Because if we remembered the multitude of past lives and what happened, we would change our behavior in what amounts to an analytical way; “Ah, it’s wrong to kill someone because when I do, karma is going to come along and smack me down, and since I don’t want that to happen again, I’ll never kill again.” That’s salvation by fear, and ultimately as pointless as hell. The idea is to purify the soul in a way that transcends the analytical and the rational and the emotional, to become pure by transcending impurity, not by learning a list of thou-shalt-nots. Some souls—the occasional Tamerlane, Timujin, Caligula, Hitler, Stalin, my 7th-grade Algebra teacher—might turn out badly, be so damaged or broken or misguided they needed to be re-formed. It’s possible, though the reforming would be seen less as punishment than as an attempt to improve a tiny spark of Self. Most souls faced adversity, challenge, even horror time after time, and became stronger thereby.

And the Source Him/Her/Its/Their Self grew and evolved and learned, and saw that it was good.

And there was evening and there was morning, a seventh aeon.

Like any myth, the above cannot begin to encompass what is. We’re too small, too ignorant, too limited in our understanding in this life to encompass All that Is. But for many Wiccans, it’s as valid as Genesis is for many Christians.

I think most Wiccans don’t believe in—or at least don’t think in terms of—the Divine being perfect to begin with. Perfection implies stasis, a lack of change, and a lack of creative growth. If things are perfect, why create more? We see growth and change (and struggle) in nature, and so see these as aspects of the Divine as well.

Originally Posted by Thomas

(and initiation would suggest he is not)
- and if not what renders it other than a romantic form of ethical humanism?

For these last two questions, I would say that initiation is not intended to create or demonstrate perfection. It DOES indicate growth and learning within its specific tradition.

Religion can be seen as serving two purposes. It represents our attempt to understand and unite with the Divine, and it provides a structure within which we can relate to other humans, through moral pronouncements, ethical teachings, and community belief. If this is true, then I submit that ALL religions represent romantic forms of ethical humanism, at least in part.

Thanks, everyone, for again indulging me with this lengthy post! Thomas’s questions sparked a wonderful bit of creativity in a particular question I was struggling with in the current book, and this allowed me to work things out. Thanks, Thomas!

[Pamela]

Originally Posted by Thomas

If there is no such element (of a 'fall') in neo-paganism I would suggest it is incomplete or not fully understood, or it might be expressed in a different way - if not a fall then a reference to a Golden Age, a Heavenly State or some order of Primordial Perfection, a means or method against which man is measured, and against which his development or advancement takes place.

You are basing the idea that a lack of a certain myth is a fault, while ignoring the fact that Wicca is born in a 20th century Western society. The society most of us have grown up in is hugely secular, with very little respect and/or understanding for myths of any culture, let alone its own. You can’t talk objectively about a ‘fall’ in a society which has the theory of evolution ingrained within it. You cannot treat it as if it were a fact. It isn’t. It may be a psychological truth but it is not a historical or scientific one.

While Wicca may not have a ‘fall’ or golden age, certain pagans do. Some believe in a matriarchal golden age. Others who are Greek Reconstructionists, follow the theory of the Ages which you referred to- Chronus’ age before the overthrow by Zeus being the Golden Age. While Wicca may not have a fall, it does have a descent, where the Goddess herself goes down to question why things must die.

Questions I would like to pose to you, Thomas, is what do you think is the role of the myth of Paradise Lost and the fall for believers in a secular society? If we don’t believe it happened factually, how can it be seen as a means of measurement for humanity? What do you think about the peoples who have no such myth- for many (but not all) aboriginal peoples don’t?

[Rev. LKKP]

Speaking from the standpoint of an intiated Witch, I must address that issue

Initiation is not about acheiving a state of perfection. To paraphrase another poster, perfection denotes stagnation - no where to go from there, and nothing but death once reached. And in Nature, nothing is static - if it exists it has movement if only at the atomic level. Period.
Initiation is a rite of passage; you are being delcared a Priestess/Priest and Witch and as such are either at that time qualified to teach others of the Craft or being prepared to go to the next level where you may not only teach but may initiate others. You take on a responibility to pass on such teachings in a manner that befits what you were taught, and to keep secret that which outsiders would not understand and could misuse merely because they lack the understanding that you have obtained.

Without going into specifics which I may not do by oath, that is the main focus of initiation. No where you do hear or see anything regarding perfection - and you won't. I know of no High Priestess or High Priest that has declared that they are more perfect than anyone else or even striving to be - for that is not the point.

As for any type of Fall or Golden Age mythos within the Craft or Neopaganism, I would suppose that would be extremely localized and subjective. Everyone interprets things differently, but I have yet to see any group of such mind that believes in a Fall from Paradise type scenario. Even the Legend of the Descent is not about a fall but a choice to descend in to the darker realm in order to further the Godess' understanding of it; to me, that has always meant that all sides of life are to be embraced if we are to be a whole person - and that love can transcend judgements of good and evil - that what one percieves as evil (such as death) is in reality a neccessary part of life and not something to be feared but understood within it's framework.

Do I as a Witch think there is no such thing as evil? No way - I've seen it too often in my own life to ever think that way. But have you considered the world we would be in if there wasn't any? What would we understand of ourselves if we never experienced it? All things in life need an opposite to compare to if we are to understand them. That is what comparison is - gaining knowledge by the study of opposites. And I've yet to see anything awful happen that no good came from. There is a reason for the phrase 'neccessary evil'. While it is often misused as a justification for doing something to someone for the wrong reasons, it is also a truism - to grow, one must clean away that which inhibits growth.

And to the tree reference in common mythologies - have you thought that a tree is also a cyclical entity in and of itself? A tree's roots extend into the ground - where the leaves it sheds from it's own branches are exactly what nourishes it and encourages it's growth along with the energy of the Sun and the warmth of Spring - the cold of Winter and of dark night gives the tree it's rest and healing time. With it's roots in the Earth and it's branches in the Sky - it encompases all that is and all that will be - that is what the tree truly is, for even when the tree dies, it is reborn from it's own seed to begin again - different, yet still a tree.

I personally believe that Life is perfect as is - our perception is what is faulty. And that there was no beginning as there is no end - it will always be and has always been. We merely choose to see it differently as a means to explain it in our narrow frame of reference.

Nor do I think ANY religion was 'handed to us by God' however you may choose to percieve It/Her/Him - Spirituality is inherent, religion is merely our way of connecting to it and coming to terms with it. On one hand, within our own frame of reference, we are the center of the Universe. On the other, we are perpetually seeking it - the snake eating it's own tail comes to mind here (a very ancient symbol also). In knowing ourselves, we know the Universe - in knowing that, we know the Divine.

Lin

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Rev. LKKP

To paraphrase another poster, perfection denotes stagnation - no where to go from there, and nothing but death once reached.

Hi Rev Lin -

I would rather say in the context of this discussion that 'perfection' denotes 'health' or 'wholeness', or 'fullness of being' and 'life' - death is an illusion, or more accurately a privation, the separation from Unity.

Does not the training and initiatic distinctions of your craft point to hierarchy that must be, to some degree, qualitative?

Thomas

[WHKeith]

In my experience, Thomas, plenty of Wiccan and pagan traditions do embrace hierarchies--most commonly as 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degree levels of initiation. As Rev. LKKP put it so well, though, initiation is a rite of passage. It has nothing to do with perfection (or wholeness or fullness of being or health) and everything to do with marking the individual as having reached a certain point in her/his studies, abilities and path. It may grant her authority within the bounds of her tradition; it may generate respect among members of other traditions. But it's generally up to such individuals to demonstrate their abilities through what they do and know rather than through appeals to having any particular initiate degree.

Solitary Wiccans self-initiate. Those ceremonies mark an important stage in the solitary's personal development, but are not, of themselves, recognized by most degree-oriented covens.

A very dear friend of mine is high priestess of a Gardnerian coven. I can't attend her coven's inner-court rituals because only initiates in that tradition may do so. But we deeply respect one another and have worked together both in non-Gardnerian circles and in Gardnerian outer-court ritual.

So yes, degree traditions may represent qualitative hierarchies, but those hierarchies are not universal within the Craft, rarely extend beyond the boundaries of their own traditions, and must be interpretted within the context of the individual tradition under discussion. In some cases, degrees are dispensed with entirely. My own coven originally constituted as a "coven of elders," which meant no degrees, that all were equal, that all and any could write ritual or serve as high priest/ess at need, and that decisions would be made in consensus rather than by fiat. We do have initiations into the coven, however, and other initiations for students who wish to declare themselves to be witches.

To address another point . . . I can't agree, Thomas, on death being a separation from unity or a privation, save, possibly and in a restricted sense, for those left behind. We see it as transformation and regeneration, the end of one cycle and the beginning of another. In some traditions, the Goddess is honored for giving humankind the GIFT of death, for without it, all would be stagnation and growth would cease.

I know that Christian traditions equate death with sin, with separation from God, and with the Fall where death entered the world through Man’s sin—a complete and absolute sundering of Man from God. I honor and respect that.

To my current way of thinking, though, and speaking only for myself, that level of absolutism is dangerously two-edged. It demands that God is responsible for evil and death (since He ultimately is responsible both for the free will we exercise and for the punishment we suffer if we choose wrongly), that justice demands a hideous and unavoidable punishment applied universally, and that mercy is necessarily, unfairly, and sharply restricted to the context of a single dogmatic creed. For my part, that kind of all-or-nothing thinking is what led me away from Christianity in the first place.

And so while many pagan traditions accept the myth of a past golden age, few, if any of us, see a universal fall that broke our connection with God.

Ah. As I think about it, let me amend that. There ARE numerous traditions, especially in shamanic and Native American spiritual circles, that see a kind of fall that separated us from NATURE . . . usually in the sense that once we could communicate with the animal kingdom, but that we have somehow lost that power. Many tribes see the shaman as being a kind of representative of that lost state, able to talk with animals and with spirits, and to bring their wisdom back to the tribe. There is a tremendously powerful lesson for us in that idea, pointing out that we today, in the West, have lost our connection with nature and with our roots as we get caught up in schedules and shopping malls and cell phones and money and superhighways and jobs and all the other trappings of modern civilization. Many of us, sadly, have lost touch with our spiritual selves, and I suppose that could be viewed as a kind of fall from a former state of grace.

However, most of us do NOT see this as a separation from Goddess, God, Great Spirit, or whatever we choose to call the Divine. The Divine remains in us and all around us. We can seek He/She/It/Them and re-establish a working connection through our own choice (rather than through a vicarious sacrifice or adherence to a formal doctrine), or we can ignore He/She/It/Them to the peril of our world.

[Rev. LKKP]

WHKeith - your reply was wonderful - thank you :-) And I found this passage very apt:

"Many of us, sadly, have lost touch with our spiritual selves, and I suppose that could be viewed as a kind of fall from a former state of grace."

If you think about it, the only connection we truly do have to the Divine is in our inner spirit - and that is the only thing we carry around with us permanently. And we make an even greater connection to the Divine in our connections with the inner spirit of others. Nearly all belief systems agree on that, even if they don't all agree on where we go when we are done with this plane of existence.

Thomas - I also agree with WHKeith that some traditions are qualitative hierarchies of a type, but again, only in their boundaries - set by themselves, and for a reason. They represent different levels of readiness for branching out on one's own within that tradition primarily. At a certain point, you have shown the readiness to walk the path and lead others in learning to walk it. Are you their 'doorway to the Divine' as the standard Monotheistic priests and ministers are thought to be? No - not even close. Each individual is thought to be their own doorway - the High Priestess/Priest is merely helping them to unlock that door. Are you any more or less perfect than your student? No again - as many of the leaders of covens I know of have said (and as I have experienced myself in teaching my own students) you learn something new everytime you teach. And that often makes the teacher the student even as they act as teacher - again, not perfect, not better than anyone - just at a different level. I've had more than one person I was teaching do something to touch me in a profound way and show me a side to life and myself I would not have considered before had I not viewed through their eyes.

And I wonder at the standard mundane thought (and I see it even in Paganism) that states that man and the world are imperfect and that only by connecting with the Divine can we be made so. Consider this; we are already connected - whether we choose to acknowledge it or no - and many religions have tried to point this fact out over the aeons.

I honestly believe that references to the "fall from Paradise" are merely allegory pointing out that when we 'knew' ourselves in a less than perfect judgemental sense (as in eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge) and we saw ourselves 'naked' (ie vulnerable) we 'clothed' ourselves (as in with ego) and were sent from Paradise; that if we are to 'return to Paradise' we must be as we once were - innocent of the judgements and jealousies that come with donning the clothing of ego. When we forgot that not only is the I a part of the We, but that the We is within the I - we forgot we were all connected - we forgot our connection to the Divine, because that connection is manifest in Us. Not an easy concept to express - I can only hope that makes some sort of sense.

I also believe that the fall mythos came about as man disconnected with his more esoteric side. Many myths in various paths support this; the Tower of Babel myth itself is a good example; man attempted to reach God by building a tower - the builders were separated in their language for they tried to reach Deity by material means. By building the tower of Ego high, they brought their understanding low. Where they were all able to understand one another previously, they no longer could because they had wrapped themselves in the material - they lost sight of where the true connection to the Divine lies - in ourselves and our connection to each other. No longer being able to connect, they were adrift and on their own - a feeling that many who are experiencing a spiritual crisis state they feel.

I could go on and on all day picking apart myths and allegories, but as it states in the Bible - let those that have eyes to see and ears to hear have understanding. The deeper Mysteries were never to be taken literally - for in the literal interpretation of man's writing - whether Divinely inspired or no - is the trap; that man could possibly explain the entire Universe in all it's complexity in any one text is the height of ego's folly; all man can come up with are ways to attempt to make sense of it all - and the Fall was just one such allegory.

I've noted that while there are those out there who follow only one text exclusively, those who I consider the most spiritual regardless of their chosen path are those that look for the Divine in all texts, in Nature, in everything - and they always seem to find the commonalities in the paths instead of the differences. And in those commonalities they find the truths they seek for themselves.

And Man's greatest 'sin' for those that use the phrase was in denying that connection to the Divine by saying he was no longer worthy of it and only in death could reconnect; I don't believe Deity denied us, but we turned our backs. Death is merely a phase of life - not an end of it. And by turning our back on the life we are given and looking only to the life 'lost in Paradise' or the one after Death, we turn our back on the greatest gift we have been given; life to experience as we choose to and with all the wonders we've been given to enjoy.

Many view Deity as Father/Mother to us all; if you, as a parent, gave your children such a wonderful place to live, would you enjoy it that they could only cry over why you condemned them to it and why can't they live somewhere else? That the Paradise they were given is considered evil and twisted? Would you not try to tell them - in whatever various ways you could find - that this is Paradise? Or could be if they weren't so busy trashing it thinking they weren't going to live here for long so why not?

As a song that I often sing put it:
"They call it Paradise/I don't know why/You call some place Paradise/And kiss it goodbye"

Long winded aren't I? LOL
This is a passion for me - to try to understand why anyone could think that we are separate from God or Goddess however they perceive them. I can't wake up in the morning without seeing the miracle that I woke up to. Even at my lowest moments (and I have them, trust me - I've lost count of how many times I have asked ungratefully to be taken out of this world) a part of me still can look around and see the miracle that is the world and the Universe we live in. The way light plays through the trees - even when it may be that I don't want to see it for I would rather be in darkness - I know it's there for me to enjoy. The smell of roses; have you ever thought of the miracle that is our sense of smell? Why would I turn my back from that? And why would Deity create something like this and tell you to ignore it for a better life later? That to me makes no sense at all.

And even Paradise has rainy days; how else could the trees grow?

We are at our healthiest if we live fully; a person who only sits and contemplates a better life elsewhere is nearly dead already, for they have forgotten how to live. If healthy and full denotes perfection, then why do so many run from it by denying life itself?

Lin

[Baud]

Thanks to WHKeith, Rev. LKKP and Pamela, who posted the answer I had neither the time nor the talent to write myself ! I must confess that I'm better at developping arguments realted to politics or law than to religion.

Baud

[CallofNature]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

A Fall of Man from a Golden Age is certainly a familiar theme across many cultures.

The Promotheus myth of Greece is a particularly interesting parallel, not least because it is woman who is seen to have caused the Fall of Man through disobedience - in this case, by Pandora. A notable difference is that woman is created to be evil to man in the first place - an interesting perspective from the pederastic Greeks.

I'm sure I've seen reference to a Golden Age in Mayan culture as well, but Mesoamerica is not a strong area for myself.

I'll try and do some further research on the issue of pan-cultural "Golden Age" references.

Peace on Earth,

I would like to refer to an interesting site I've read lately, which sheds the light on various aspects amongst myths and realities as of concerns the origins of man and, hence, the origins of beliefs of the Golden Age and the Fall of Humanity, please take your time to read and analyse:
http://www.atlan.org/

With best wishes for peace and prosperity

[Phi]

Some of you may have read these who read the poetry section in the Lounge. but since they are based upon an ancient Sumerian legend of Lillith, who also appears in Rabbinic writings, I thought you might find it interesting here. In the ancient religions of Sumeria, Nammu was the primordial abyss from which all things come and was given to be female. The Anzu was a flying dragon or a dragon-like bird (pterodactyl type creature?) The serpent was a symbol of wisdom. Lillith was a female spirit, not a goddess, but not fully explained as an angel or demon in what I could find. Inanna was a goddess. In the story Inanna asked Gilgamesh to rid a tree in her garden of Lillith who had taken up residence in the tree trunk, the Anzu, who was nesting in the branches, and a serpent in the roots.
I found some similarity with the Garden of Eden story since the tree, wise serpent and garden of the god/godess was in each, and since Lillith was included in the tale of creation in some rabbinical writings which seemed to give a fuller accounting of legends of Lillith from a Patriarchal point of view.

The Lillith Oracles

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The First Translation, The Riddle

Lillith in Sumaria did shelter in a tree
Within an old and hallowed trunk a simple home to be

And where ever went the Lillith was Old Wisdom wont to go
And coiled herself beneath the roots and guarded Lillith so

And high up in the branches the Anzu built her nest
That nothing falling from the sky keep Lillith from her rest

Old Sin, the moon, shone blessings down upon the peaceful scene
And Lillith with her guardians grew contented and serene

Had Inanna left the three in peace and in sweet nature's arms
Would YWHW's man have ever asked the Lillith for her charms?

And had he not then bullied and thought himself her king
The world of men need not have feared the serpent's bite and sting

And the great old dragon-bird might well have lived in peace
Had Adam not disturbed her nest with evil lust/hubris

And Adam's sons, the rabbis, might have better told the story
Than to say that Sin was evil when the moon is ought but glory

If you would know of Lillith's tale it started not with Hebrew
Go back to old Sumeria and knowledge from the Nammu

If you would know whence Lillith came and understand the fall
You must go to the Nammu of the deep abyss of all

(Oracle of the Nammu)
The beginning of the cycle now called the "fall of man,"
Is in truth, the fall of Womanpride when Manhubris began.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Second Translation: The Cycle

And you may see the mystery
of Lillith shut within the tree
Is that the Old Ones put her there
no food scant light and little air

In hopes that she a spirit bright
might die and fall to dust one night
And closed her in with daub and wattle
thinking her bright soul to throttle

For in a cycle out of time
did Lillith rage and enter mind
Of woman angry woman strong
the lifeblood of the Amazon

Who slaked her lust then gelded men
& instilled worship of her ken
With priestesses that prophesied
& men enslaved & woman-pride

And took the babies that were male
& burned them live in fires of Bel
When men were nought but for the lust
and women brought them to the dust

And to the ashes of the pyres
except poor slaves enchained as sires
Imprisoned them and used them bitter
and led them know the woman fitter

To be the One and Only One
and woman great and man anon
Inanna who was goddess/woman
and asked for help to rid the vermin

From a tree in her own yard
might well have known in her hard heart
And using woman's wisdom subtle
set spell on man his mind to muddle

Gilgamesh who wished to please
released the female god Hubris
And following Inanna's quest
freed Lillith serpent and bird/beast

And Lillith angry from her trap
and mad with anguish made a map
Of stars that showed the cycle sad
Of woman-all-good & man-all-bad

But cycles must be balanc-ed
by laws of Nammu still unread
So cycle after Lillith's own
Has left all womankind to moan

Until a cycle pure & sweet
of Equal Knowing can repeat
The wisdom of the All & All:
"Pride riseth high before a fall."

(Oracle of the Nammu)
Strive for the cycle of the Phi
Where both the line and circle be
For both the circle and the line
Create life's spiral for all time.

[Phi]

Perhaps there are no need for "legends" yet of a fall of a golden age of wise-craft because the "legends of a fall" are recorded history instead of distant myths.

I am frankly surprised no one made this observation. It fell with hanging, burning and torturing until persons were afraid to even mention that their grannies once knew buttercup from dandelion.

Modern Wicca is not a total revival of the ancient wise arts, as there were not many records left after so many years of persecutions. But there are many similarities to what is still known about the old ways, some passed down verbally over time, and some bits from history, and some mystical remembrances, perhaps.

Most wiccans, or at least wiccan women, are well able to recognize the connection even if the history plays no formal part in their ceremonies and practices.

Even an herbalist could be hung or burned for practicing the best brand of medicine extant in those days instead of the extremely backward and bizarre treatments offered by the male physicians then. If you had a mole, it was a witches tit & you were doomed. If you looked younger than other women of your age, you could be tortured. I am sure you all know it was a period of horrible atrocity unequaled in time, and that if the evil of the witch hunts clearly resided more with the hunters than with the hunted.

[Phi]

I am sure you all know it was a period of horrible atrocity unequaled in recorded time, and that the evil of the witch hunts clearly resided more with the hunters than with the hunted.[/QUOTE] I left out the inapporopriate "if."

Sorry all if I sounded short and abrupt. There was a bad thunderstorm that I noticed was getting a little dangerous as I was typing, so I was hurrying more than usual.

By the way, I am not a Wiccan myself. So if any of you who are feels a need to step in and correct me, please do so. I do have Wiccan friends and I have studied the basics, but will likely remain a solitary.

[omnizac]

Hello all, this is my first post on the whole forum!
There is a kind of duality in many religions, referred to by Thomas, that sets up a tension between the perfect state and the current state. However the theory runs:..in the end something has to be done by (or to) the individual, to make the transition from imperfection to perfection.
Even in the most philosophically rich forms of Buddhism - telling us that there is no difference between the Buddha and an unenlightened person - there is still the caveat "if only the unenlightened person could perceive this truth."

So for me, the Fall is another way of expressing this little (yet all important) anomally between perfection and actuality. People get confused when (if) they hear a Taoist say that original nature is perfect, while they've always understood that we are stained with original sin. But hey, both the Christian and the Taoist can agree that we are all less than perfect at the moment, and that *something* has to be done to gain/regain perfection. (Even if that 'something' is as slight as a shift in perception)

It's one of the characteristics of the biblical religions that their theories tend to be expressed in historical terms. For example: the Fall happened a long time ago, but God eventually overcame the Fall, through the Resurrection, and one day, he'll come back and straighten things out completely. However, it is vital to remember that in these religions, (or at least in Christianity) what happens in space and time also happens in eternity - so not just those of us lucky enough to be born A.D. have the option of salvation. This tends to neutralise the 'unpleasantness' of confining divinity to purely historic dimensions.

Likewise, we can look at an Eastern religion such as Buddhism, and see that although (in some forms) there is an emphasis on the concurrence of Samsara and Nirvana or of the imperfect world and the perfect world; and although it is a vital aspect of the Buddha's realisation that he saw that the world was always perfect; we must also realise that our own journey down this (instantaneous) path is expressed through time, in the personal history of our own lives.

thanks for reading!
Omnizac.

[I, Brian]

Hi Omnizac, and welcome to CR.

And good points made, too.

[paradisaic]

The Bible is the only true book. Respectfully, all this about the Garden of Eden account being taken from other books is mistaken. It's the other way around. The other tales were siphoned from the word-of-mouth accounts of Abraham and his clan, no doubt to lands like Ur and Gad. Even the Canaanite people borrowed from the story and applied it to their own gods.

[harticulate]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Biblical scholarship has shown that myth and story has been accrued from other traditions, as if they're some kind of counterfeit or robbery. I rather think that no one culture has sole access to the truth, and the wise can see the truth in whatever cultural guise it manifests.

Thank you for that............sums it up for me. The "who is right" debate.

Heidi