Paradise and the Fall

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Pamela

Questions I would like to pose to you, Thomas, is what do you think is the role of the myth of Paradise Lost and the fall for believers in a secular society? If we don’t believe it happened factually, how can it be seen as a means of measurement for humanity? What do you think about the peoples who have no such myth- for many (but not all) aboriginal peoples don’t?

This is an old thread and I admit I have not recently read all the preceding posts, but this caught my eye.

I'm guessing that someone (Thomas?) suggested that all religions have a myth that explaines the dissonance we feel with creation/each other and an ideal to which we strive or long for, a healing, the establishment or re-establisment of harmony and peace. I think that in a secular society we do have these myths, even if we do not regard them as so. The 'Utopian Society' exists in our minds whether or not we think it is attainable or associate it with God. Some people probably believe (perhaps not as common now as it was a century ago) that science will be the means by which we achieve Paradise. This can be seen in snippets when we use info gleaned from 'science' about, for example, how increase our lifespan (fad diets for example).

Others look to political systems (socialism, communism, fascism?) to create the utopian society.

I'd be interested to hear Path of One's take on the observation that not all aboriginal societies had a creation myth. I find it hard to believe.

cheers,
lunamoth

[I, Brian]

Just bumping a topic linked to from the main site.

[wil]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Just bumping a topic linked to from the main site.

I find this thread wonderful reading, I find it amazing your bump had no affect.

If I am reading it right, Thomas's conjecture is that while the bible is based on various pagan rituals, rights, myths and beliefs that those stories and understandings were through Christ...

While on one hand that almost sounds like some reverse engineering, on the other it opens the door to Christ being a concept that New Thought and Theosophists have in common. That the Christ is not a single being, but one that develops a complete understanding of what G!d is and what s/he is. As in Jesus the Christ(ed), as opposed to a last name.

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Baud stated elsewhere that there was no story of a Fall in Neopagan philosophy. I'm treading gently here because I don't want to step on Baud's or anyone's toes, but:

If there is no such element (of a 'fall') in neo-paganism I would suggest it is incomplete or not fully understood, or it might be expressed in a different way - if not a fall then a reference to a Golden Age, a Heavenly State or some order of Primordial Perfection, a means or method against which man is measured, and against which his development or advancement takes place.

Not knowing the symbolism of neo-paganism, I would have to investigate, but I would start at the symbol of the tree.

The biblical Tree in the midst of Paradise for example, has its counterpart in Yggdrasil, the World Tree of Scandinavian Mythology, and from a different perspective corresponds to the jewelled spear with which the twin dieties Izanagi-no-Mikato and Izanami-no-Mikato stirred the primordial oceans to raise the islands of Japan. In Hindu tradition the World Tree is represented by the fig, and in some accounts the Gautama Buddha achieved enlightenment after meditating beneath the branches of a fig tree. St Peter in Scripture talks of Christ hung upon a tree.

In such traditions the tree represents the vertical axis that penetrates every level of creation, and in so doing represents the Divine Principle operative at every level.

In Greek myth golden apples grew on a golden tree in The Garden of the Hesperides, and the flesh of a golden apples was said to grant immortality - a return to primodial perfection. This golden tree was located on a mythical isle in the west. Likewise Odyssius had to win the Golden Fleece, again hung on a tree on a mythical island.

The notion of a 'mythical isle' - Avalon in Arthurian legend - replicates the primordial Eden which is now hidden, that is to say its location is uncharted, the seeker has to find it by himself, or one might say, within himself. The only clue, that it lies to the west, signifies the end times, as the west signifies the setting sun, and at the end of the cosmic cycle, the island will be revealed. Until then, only the courageous few will make the perilous journey. Another correspondence here is with the Pure Land of the West of Amida Buddhism.

I would hazard a guess that it's in there somewhere.

There is a small problem though. There was no fall in paradise; i.e. in the Garden of Eden. One does not fall from acquiring knowledge. The opposite is rather true, according to Hosea, who said that people fall, i.e. perish for lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6) Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. And that was not a fall either, but a lesson about the reality that eternal life was not among the Divine attributes granted to man. Eternal life was to belong with God only. (Gen. 3;22)
Ben

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by wil

If I am reading it right, Thomas's conjecture is that while the bible is based on various pagan rituals, rights, myths and beliefs that those stories and understandings were through Christ...

Hmm, not quite. I'd say that the first chapters of the Bible present quite a profound metaphysic, presented in mythopoeic terms.

Originally Posted by wil

While on one hand that almost sounds like some reverse engineering...

Well not if Christ is God, as Christianity states. The Boble can hardly come before God.

Originally Posted by wil

... it opens the door to Christ being a concept that New Thought and Theosophists have in common. That the Christ is not a single being, but one that develops a complete understanding of what G!d is and what s/he is. As in Jesus the Christ(ed), as opposed to a last name.

No, that's not it at all, on a number of counts:
God is above being.
God does not develop.
Jesus and Christ are not two separate things

The Incarnation is the personification of the Logos — I am constantly surprised to see how much of a problem people have with accepting the idea that the Logos of God, by whom all things came to be ... can manifest all things except Himself.

Go figure ...

God bless,

Thomas

[voice]

The god of babylonians differ , from the god of any other nation. Each gods had uniqeness in their character , according to the peoples belief ,their moral and spiritual weight. Adam is created after Jehovah , the Jewish god. In Genesis chapter one the name of god is not Jehovah ,but Elohim ,the gods of nations around . . . Archeology confirm this . So the fall means 'particularly ' for jews not for all mankind or any other gentile nation.

[granpa]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Baud stated elsewhere that there was no story of a Fall in Neopagan philosophy. I'm treading gently here because I don't want to step on Baud's or anyone's toes, but:

If there is no such element (of a 'fall') in neo-paganism I would suggest it is incomplete or not fully understood, or it might be expressed in a different way - if not a fall then a reference to a Golden Age, a Heavenly State or some order of Primordial Perfection, a means or method against which man is measured, and against which his development or advancement takes place.

Not knowing the symbolism of neo-paganism, I would have to investigate, but I would start at the symbol of the tree.

The biblical T���ree in the midst of Paradise for example, has its counterpart in Yggdrasil, the World Tree of Scandinavian Mythology, and from a different perspective corresponds to the jewelled spear with which the twin dieties Izanagi-no-Mikato and Izanami-no-Mikato stirred the primordial oceans to raise the islands of Japan. In Hindu tradition the World Tree is represented by the fig, and in some accounts the Gautama Buddha achieved enlightenment after meditating beneath the branches of a fig tree. St Peter in Scripture talks of Christ hung upon a tree.

In such traditions the tree represents the vertical axis that penetrates every level of creation, and in so doing represents the Divine Principle operative at every level.

In Greek myth golden apples grew on a golden tree in The Garden of the Hesperides, and the flesh of a golden apples was said to grant immortality - a return to primodial perfection. This golden tree was located on a mythical isle in the west. Likewise Odyssius had to win the Golden Fleece, again hung on a tree on a mythical island.

The notion of a 'mythical isle' - Avalon in Arthurian legend - replicates the primordial Eden which is now hidden, that is to say its location is uncharted, the seeker has to find it by himself, or one might say, within himself. The only clue, that it lies to the west, signifies the end times, as the west signifies the setting sun, and at the end of the cosmic cycle, the island will be revealed. Until then, only the courageous few will make the perilous journey. Another correspondence here is with the Pure Land of the West of Amida Buddhism.

I would hazard a guess that it's in there somewhere.

egyptian, greek, and aztec mythologies speak of many floods.
one of these is the biblical flood and one is the fall.

Ancient_Greek_flood_myths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Five Suns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Ben Masada]

Originally Posted by voice

The god of babylonians differ , from the god of any other nation. Each gods had uniqeness in their character , according to the peoples belief ,their moral and spiritual weight. Adam is created after Jehovah , the Jewish god. In Genesis chapter one the name of god is not Jehovah ,but Elohim ,the gods of nations around . . . Archeology confirm this . So the fall means 'particularly ' for jews not for all mankind or any other gentile nation.

The Jews did not exist at the time of Creation; but only as a prophecy to rise many years later from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Gen. 1:3) Here are some more of the details:

Let There Be Light and There Was Light



It has been an a "tohu vavohu" among many questioners, especially Christians, even many Jews, to come up with an explanation for that kind of light in Genesis 1:3 wen the sun, which gives light by day was created only on the 4th day of creation. The embarrassment is that at both, Atheists laugh. And not because they know any better in terms of an adequate answer, but for two other reasons: First, because they look for answer only in Science; and of course it is not there but in Theology. And in Theology, they laugh at us for they think that we are all speaking about an anthropomorphic god, which, as I don't blame them: It indeed never existed.

But what light is indeed the Torah writer referring to when he reports of God as declaring, "Let there be light?"

Since before the creation of the universe it was already in the designs of God to provide for salvation of Mankind, a People whom salvation would come from, in the words of Jesus himself in John 4:22.

When for good, the Assyrians removed Israel from existence by replacing the Northern population of the Galilee with Gentiles, and after the Jews or Southern pupulation was taken for an temporary exile of 70 years in Babylon, and the time had arrived for their return to the Land of Israel, Prophet Isaiah said that the people who walked in darkness, he meant the Gentiles in Galilee, had seen a great light as the Jewish People was returning to the Land of Israel. (Isa. 9:2)

Then, later, he confirms that light of Genesis 1:3 when he explained that Israel had been assigned as light to the nations. (Isa. 42:6) But the light was to remain divided from the darkness, so that both should exist in the same world; although, in the language of the Essenes, there would always be a conflict between the children of Light and the children of darkness. Between Jews and Gentiles.

Jesus was aware of this Light as he delivered his famous Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, when he said to them: "You are the Light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) The reason why he said "you are" and not "you have" is that what one has, it can be taken away, but what one is he is no matter what. Individually, we have the light the world needs to know God. But as a People, we are the light of Genesis 1:3, which the world needs for salvation.

Ben