Pope ready to bow to Allah?! - Page 2

Promethium · 12-01-2006, 04:53 AM

What would Jesus do?

Seeker_of_truth · 12-01-2006, 05:56 AM

(imho) He would embrace friend and enemy with undying love.

lunamoth · 12-01-2006, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

(imho) He would embrace friend and enemy with undying love.

I think so too.

Thomas · 12-01-2006, 10:02 AM

I think the tragic aspect of the affair is:

1 - That from a 90 minute speech the news media chose to extract a couple of lines which, in isolation, could be read as an attack on Islam – and then posted such to Islamic news agencies (and there is a firm finger pointing at the BBC on that one).

Consider - if someone mentions the excesses of the Crusades, do Christians react in the same manner?

2 - That even though cultural, Christian and notably Islamic academics have said the comment made was nowhere near as inflamatory as people would wish, the fundamentalist element and those with a political agenda will continue to play this up – and the media are complicit in this.

Bearing in mind that on previous occassions Pope Benedict XVI has called on Islam to stand alongside Christianity, (and Judaism and other world religions) in upholding the values of human dignity that are enshrined in our respective doctrines – in the face of their errosion by economic and commercial pressures – where were our media pundits then?

+++

Perhaps the greatest 'disaster' is the silencing of the intellectual voice of Islam – this is the tradition that gave us Rumi and Ibn'Arabi – today the moderate and thinking voice is silenced by a rabble-rousing fundamentalism.

+++

The proper response is to rise above all this and make the noble gesture.

Pope Benedict's acknowledgement is such a gesture.

I remember when Pope John XXIII went to Communist Russia, and again the same voices were outraged. When asked what motivated his visit, the Pope replied "whenever I am faced with the brick wall of ignorance and oppression, if I can do anything to loosen one little brick, then maybe one day that wall will fall down."

Thomas

wil · 12-01-2006, 04:12 PM

As it turns out, it is reported he turned toward Mecca and prayed side by side with the head cleric, five points to the floor, a gesture of submission to G-d (aka Allah in Arabic)

While I think it a wonderful act, regardless of what was said, meant or intended prior...seems an appropriate extension of the past papacy.

Of course in this regard my viewpoint matters very little, as I am not Catholic, I really don't have any right to say whether what their leader did was right or wrong.

But as Christianity as a whole has no other leader in this regard (other than Jesus, who I agree would was right there with the two of them)..it is a grand gesture...one much needed.

Saltmeister · 12-01-2006, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Removing one's shoes and prostrating oneself in the same way as Muslims do in the mosque, and observing the same rituals is an expression of the fact that one is devoted to that religion.

For the Pope to have to remove his shoes, wash his feet, bow down and prostrate himself when the call is given to the Muslims in the mosque, that would be like losing face, losing honour. It would be very humiliating to the Pontiff.

Sure, God understands, but the most excruciating part is not God's opinion of the Pope, but the opinions of men . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That is not what the Pope has to do. The article stated he would have to remove his shoes upon entering the Mosque, that was the only thing the article stated.

I was deliberately exaggerating there. The idea of being forced to do the same things as Muslims in the mosque was a suggestion. If it was true that would be the ultimate humiliation for Christians around the world, even if the Pope isn't our leader. No group of Christians would ever want that to happen to their leader -- even someone else's.

How fortunate for the Pope!!! How relieving. My point was that it would have been a humiliation if he had to go that one step further. But . . . what do you think would happen if, one day, something like that did happen to Christian leaders? Signs of the Times?

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Originally Posted by Dor

So depends on what you actually think about Allah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

I am interested to know what your concept of Allah (which literally means "The One God") and the Hebrew God is.

From a Christian point of view, the Islamic God Allah is only nominally equivalent to the God of Israel in which Christians believe, and likewise only nominally equivalent to the God of Christ.

For Christians, Allah is conceptually not the same God. A God is conceptualised in the way a religion is taught and expressed. The way Islam structures and organises life, and the concepts to which Muslims align themselves, the values of Islam, Islam's rules and approach to life mean that a different God is conceptualised in Islam than in Christianity.

While Islam tends to organise and structure life, Christianity is, in a sense, independent of structure. Christianity doesn't have structure. A Christian's spiritual journey is conceptualised in metaphors and symbols that serve as signposts in that journey. Not all of these "signposts" will be encountered in one's spiritual journey. Moreover, we won't notice them all at once. While Muslims may see Islam as "more advanced" than Christianity, a Christian may just as easily consider these concepts "unessential" as the most important thing is one's spiritual journey. If Christians can dismiss Islam as unessential then that ultimately means that one religion does not affect the other. It's just a matter of choosing which one is more valid.

The theories used in Islam and Christianity to conceptualise one's spiritual journey are completely different in nature, which would lead me to conclude that the God depicted in the two religions are conceptually different.

Saltmeister · 12-01-2006, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

But as Christianity as a whole has no other leader in this regard (other than Jesus, who I agree would was right there with the two of them)..it is a grand gesture...one much needed.

I guess, then, it might not be a "humiliation" after all, or even seen as "blasphemy" toward Christianity. It's not that the Pope's my leader, I'm not Catholic, but the idea of any Christian leader being "humiliated" may be intimidating enough.

We could say that the Pope's visit was "a purely personal one" of asking forgiveness from the Islamic world. I guess, then, that it's between the Pope and Islam. It doesn't involve the rest of Christendom.

A religious leader is just a man. Who ever said that any religious leader could speak for all of us, all the time? There are times when religious leaders only speak for themselves.

As Jesus said, "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and give to God the things that are God's."

Dor · 12-01-2006, 04:38 PM

Whats next? Where does it stop? When does keeping the peace cross the line?

wil · 12-01-2006, 05:37 PM

I don't think keeping the peace, turning the other cheek, loving thy enemy ever crosses the line. The problem is we've never, never fully tried it.

I thought it quite enlightening having a Imam visit our church and discuss Islam. The five pillars, submission to G-d, the ritual prayer prostrate 5 times a day, the charity required, the pilgramige to Mecca (at least once, if you can afford it), and fasting during Ramadan...and how he felt close to Allah (G-d) when he was fasting and alone, and only had one to answer to...no one else would know.

He made it clear that while Christians believe that salvation can only be achieved through Christ, he believed that salvation can only be achieved by following the pillars...and that the problem with the terrorists is they are not Muslims, they have strayed from the faith, as it would be impossible for them to do what they doing.

I sure don't see the Pope as bowing to some foriegn G-d than to be bathing in spirit with fellow believers of G-d. I heard him say something along the lines that the we need to connect more with the non-theists, and not be so concerned about other theists...

Thomas · 12-01-2006, 07:04 PM

Hi Dor -

Perhaps if the pope asked an Imam to come and worship in a Church ... that would be interesting ... but I doubt they would get the point.

Christ asked his father to forgive those who nailed Him to a cross. If God can do that, I doubt He would hold much against the man who reached out in a gesture of eccumenism and unity in His name – a clear sign of one who follows a loving and forgiving God.

Courage, mon frere! (to be read in a French accent)

Hi Saltmeister -
A religious leader is just a man. Who ever said that any religious leader could speak for all of us, all the time? There are times when religious leaders only speak for themselves.
That's why we have the doctrine of ex cathedra - common to popular belief, we do not believe the pope, or what he says, is infallible. Only when he speaks with the voice of the Church is it so.

Thomas.

China Cat Sunflower · 12-02-2006, 06:01 PM

By all accounts the Pope's trip to Turkey was a resounding success. He managed to pull off a nearly astounding public relations coup. I'm astonished that anyone would fault the Pope for praying to God in a mosque in the locally accepted manner. It was a brilliant manuever, and a clear demonstration of his desire to put the bad feelings generated by his remarks behind him. My Dad had a saying when we were kids that's stuck with me. He said, "if you please where you go, you can go where you please." Looks like Benedict gets it.

Chris

Quahom1 · 12-02-2006, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

I am interested to know what your concept of Allah (which literally means "The One God") and the Hebrew God is.

Not quite true. Allah means the main god. Please don't correct me with crap, when I know my history. Allah is the main god of a whole lot of gods in the old arab world.

That Muslims claim Allah (the Supreme God) as the God of the Universe is great...but about 500 to 1000 years too late.

Since the Pope is about to enter a house that is designated for God, he will remove his shoes in accordance with local tradition. He has respect for the people who believe as they do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quahom1 · 12-02-2006, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

By all accounts the Pope's trip to Turkey was a resounding success. He managed to pull off a nearly astounding public relations coup. I'm astonished that anyone would fault the Pope for praying to God in a mosque in the locally accepted manner. It was a brilliant manuever, and a clear demonstration of his desire to put the bad feelings generated by his remarks behind him. My Dad had a saying when we were kids that's stuck with me. He said, "if you please where you go, you can go where you please." Looks like Benedict gets it.

Chris

My dad had a saying too. Stand up for what you believe or else fall in line with everyone else...

No thanks.

BlaznFattyz · 12-02-2006, 06:46 PM

in the military there is the saying if you cant respect the person respect the position. is it possible for the pope to respect the muslim religion but not their version of god?

Quahom1 · 12-02-2006, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

in the military there is the saying if you cant respect the person respect the position. is it possible for the pope to respect the muslim religion but not their version of god?

Take off your cross. Do not bow before the Lord. There is only one God, and your Jesus is not it.

Allah is the only God, and you will submit to Him, or die...

There are your options...