Popes

[Quahom1]

Ok, I've been patient with you. Since I am one of the few catholics here, I figured why not indulge you. Now I see, I was mistaken.

This is a forum for discussion, not condemnation, of any faith, creed or religion. IF you cannot abide by that code of conduct...you should leave.

Should you insist on continuing in this brow beating, well, it's not a good thing.

If I wanted to get my butt kicked, I'd go back to catholic school. Now, please desist.

If you want to discuss Catholicism, then we can. If you want to show how superior you are over catholics...this is not the place to do it.

v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Ok, I've been patient with you. Since I am one of the few catholics here, I figured why not indulge you. Now I see, I was mistaken.

This is a forum for discussion, not condemnation, of any faith, creed or religion. IF you cannot abide by that code of conduct...you should leave.

Should you insist on continuing in this brow beating, well, it's not a good thing.

If I wanted to get my butt kicked, I'd go back to catholic school. Now, please desist.

If you want to discuss Catholicism, then we can. If you want to show how superior you are over catholics...this is not the place to do it.

v/r

Q

I second that.

[precept]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Ok, I've been patient with you. Since I am one of the few catholics here, I figured why not indulge you. Now I see, I was mistaken.

This is a forum for discussion, not condemnation, of any faith, creed or religion. IF you cannot abide by that code of conduct...you should leave.

Should you insist on continuing in this brow beating, well, it's not a good thing.

If I wanted to get my butt kicked, I'd go back to catholic school. Now, please desist.

If you want to discuss Catholicism, then we can. If you want to show how superior you are over catholics...this is not the place to do it.
Q

The excercise, therefore, as to "who is right; and who is wrong" has no value in the grand plan of God's salvation of humanity.

The True church is to be found in each individual Christian who truly loves his Lord. Only such an individual Christian knows if he loves his Lord and how much he so loves his Lord. That individual Christian then searches the scripture as he would read a "love letter" received from one with whom he/she is in love. He/she then follows the direction he/she so receives from the words of the "love letter", leaving nothing to chance...and certainly not to another to decide for him/her.


precept

If you see in the above quotation a condemnation of any organized Christian religion; condemned because they do not build on the true truths of God--you are right!
If on the other hand you see in every organized Christian religion, the true child of God who seeks after God's truth as one "seeks for hidden treasure"...and as the woman in scripture that swept her whole house, looking for her lost coin; which when she found; called in the whole neighborhood to rejoice with her .....If you see these "seekers after truth" as being in all organized Christian religions--then you would be wrong in accusing me of condemning the honest "seekers after truth" who can be found in all Christian religions.



precept

[precept]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I second that.

Juantoo3! Disappointed!


precept

[Faithfulservant]

Ok let me see if I have this correctly.. In all your novel length posts if you are saying that there are true Christians in every organized church and its not the individual church that forms the bride of Christ.. I will agree.


I will not condemn anyone of anything.. My prayer is for those who are bound by church doctrine.. I believe that Christ brings us freedom in which we are all partakers of.

They are STILL my brothers and sisters in Christ in whatever way they worship Him.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Precept:

Are you saying that you have a problem with anyone who accepts the doctrines of a particular Christian tradition without looking to God directly for themselves and that such a person is not on the "True" path?

If so, what if some people look at the doctrines of a particular Christian tradition and look to God, and decide for themselves that that particular tradition is the "True" path for them? Who are you to say it isn't?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by precept

If you see in the above quotation a condemnation of any organized Christian religion; condemned because they do not build on the true truths of God--you are right!
If on the other hand you see in every organized Christian religion, the true child of God who seeks after God's truth as one "seeks for hidden treasure"...and as the woman in scripture that swept her whole house, looking for her lost coin; which when she found; called in the whole neighborhood to rejoice with her .....If you see these "seekers after truth" as being in all organized Christian religions--then you would be wrong in accusing me of condemning the honest "seekers after truth" who can be found in all Christian religions.



precept

I see, an arrogant, self-righteous person, masquerading as someone perfect within the Spirit of God.

I am neither self-righteous, nor perfect...therefore I must not be looking in the mirror.

How's your view?

Q

[I, Brian]

It's getting a little hot in this thread - so perhaps we should remind that it's not really fitting on CR to publicly condemn other faiths and paths simply for being different?

Certainly there's a lot of criticism out there on Catholicism, and also of Protestant Reform movements. However, let's try and keep to the idea of an interractive discussion, and not one where people feel a need to elevate themselves above other traditions? We've had too much of minority Christians witnessing against others recently...

[Quahom1]

Yes sir. sorry. no disrespect intended towards anyone. I just got hot under the collar, as you observed.

v/r

q

[precept]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Precept:

Are you saying that you have a problem with anyone who accepts the doctrines of a particular Christian tradition without looking to God directly for themselves and that such a person is not on the "True" path?

If so, what if some people look at the doctrines of a particular Christian tradition and look to God, and decide for themselves that that particular tradition is the "True" path for them? Who are you to say it isn't?

There is none who can say that any particular human is saved! No;not even the pope!

But the scriptures are quite clear as to which religion is the true religion of Jesus; also the scriptures show quite clearly the tenets of same.



precept

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by precept

There is none who can say that any particular human is saved! No;not even the pope!

But the scriptures are quite clear as to which religion is the true religion of Jesus; also the scriptures show quite clearly the tenets of same.



precept

They are? What do the scriptures say is the true religion of Jesus?

If it's so clear, it shouldn't be any trouble pointing it out.

[precept]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

They are? What do the scriptures say is the true religion of Jesus?

If it's so clear, it shouldn't be any trouble pointing it out.

Fact is; I know I can do better than the scriptures in pointing out "the true religion of Jesus"

It is no secret that Jesus came to earth to point humanity to the true worship of Himself, our God our Creator.


precept

[lunamoth]

26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. (James 1)

peace,
lunamoth

[precept]

Originally Posted by precept

Fact is; I know I can do better than the scriptures in pointing out "the true religion of Jesus"

It is no secret that Jesus came to earth to point humanity to the true worship of Himself, our God our Creator.


precept

I had to get everyone agreeing to the above before I could continue.

Jesus became our PERFECT EXAMPLE of true worship of Himself, our Lord, our God, our Creator.
We will therefore follow without fail every act of worship He practiced while human; which if we do, we can't but worship as He worshipped; thus worshipping Him as He desires to be worshipped.

When He was born human his mother took him to the Temple to be blessed.[Luke 2:21-24] She did not take him to the Parthenon in Greece or to the Temple of the Eygptian Kings. Nor did she take him to the Pagan Roman Temple of Isis or Jupiter--she took Him Jesus to the Temple in Jerusalem; which makes any in Judaaism who would practice Jesus' religion,also take their infants at birth to the temple in Jerusalem to be blessed.

What is more important, however, is that Jesus gave credence and approbation to the practice of offering up sacrifices as was the practice in Judaism at the time of His birth. He also by appearing in His mother's arms; her with her "two turtledoves" as offering for her son to be blessed by the priest of Judaism. By this Jesus gave His approval to the ecclesiastical responsibility of the religios leaders of Judaism.

If we are then to follow Jesus' example as to how to worship Him; we must out of necessity look to the religion of Judaism. But let us suppose that Jesus had no control over what His earthly parents chose for their religion; He wouild thus choose His own way of worshipping His Father, on His becoming an adult; and this He did as recorded in Luke 4:16 "....and as His custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day". This was an ongoing, usual, customary practice of Jesus as verse 15 of Luke 4 attests... Jesus was always in the synagogues which only opened on the sabbath day; and always teaching his fellow sabbathkeeping Jews.
Jesus did not go to the Parthenon, nor to the Temple of Diana, nor to the Temple of Ra or the Temple of Jupiter to teach. He only taught in the Temple in Jerusalem and only on the sabbath day when He attended synagogue.

If the priests in the Temple of Diana enquired after the religion of the Jewish Messiah they would be told that the religion of the Jewish Messiah IS JUDAISM. If these priests decided to go to Jerusalem on the seventh day and they wanted to hear Jesus teach, they only had to go to the Jewish synagogue and there they would hear the Creator of the unverse Himself teaching humanity on the seventh day--the day He called His own in Genesis 2:1-3....If therefore any of the priests from the Temple of Diana chose to follow the Creator of the universe and worship as He worshipped...their only choice would be to be baptized into Judaism. They would also go to synagogue on the seventh day sabbath and while in the syangogue they would listen with rapt attention as Jesus, God Himself read from the book of Isaiah[Luke 4:17-21] the very words He gave Isaiah to write as His holy scriptures The now coverted pagan priest is now a true covert of Jesus following his Master's example and worshipping His Master every sabbath day in the synagogues of Jews.

The now converted pagan priest aalso noticed that Jesus always had twelve other Jewish men with Him everywhere Jesus went. He was later told that these twelve Jewish men who also faithfully attended synagogue on the sabbath day were specially handpicked by the Messiah Himself....and that they they like the Messiah were devout Jews who always worshipped Jesus God on the sabbath day.

One day the pagan priest listened to Jesus teach that the religious leaders of the Jews were blind and that the people who went to synagogue and who followed the teachings of the religious leaders; that they were also blind. The pagan priest then thought that Jesus was abandoning His Jewish religion; but observed that He still attended and taught as He was accustomed on the sabbath day; and in the synagogues. He also observed that although Jesus did not accept the teachings of the Jewish religious leaders; that Jesus still accepted that the Temple, completely run by these false religious leaders was His [B]"Father's House".[B] This despite saying that the religious leaders and those their followers were worshipping Him in vain; and teaching doctrines that were of human origins and not of God.[Matthew 15:9]

Which brings us to the disciples of Jesus who continued to be devout Jews; still practicing Judaism after their Master, who also practiced Judaism, had returned to heaven. These disciples were now singled out as devout Jews who followed the arch-enemy of the ecclesiastical leadership of Judaism. They were then dubbed the name Christian a derisive name given to Jews who had given their allegiance to the "imposter Jewish Messiah". This did not phase Jesus' twelve disciples who still continued in their Jewish traditions despite the ridicule endured at the hands of their fellow Jews of established Judaism.

The pagan priest, now turned Christian followed the disciples' teaching that they had learned from listening to Jesus So in the synagogues every sabbath he would learn the true teachings of Jesus as each disciple recounted the words as taught by Jesus. The pagan priest turned Christian, heard of Peter's going to the house of the gentile Cornelius; but he also heard that Peter almost did not go into Cornelius' house on account of Peter's still practicing the Jewish commandment "not to go into the house of Gentiles".

The Pagan priest now turned Christian, began to now recognized that the Religion of Jesus transcended the teaching methods used by the religious leaders of Judaism to teach Judaism...and that it was how Jesus Himself taught His religion of Judaism that made His way of teaching His religion, true. This was also true for Jesus' twelve disciples...it was how they continued to teach as their Master taught the religion of Judaism that the Christian way of teaching Judaism, became the true religion of Jesus.

Paul, another of the false Jewish leaders, who later converted to the Christian way of teaching Judaism; also taught in the Jewish synagogues in Asia and western Europe. He taught also in the synagogues on the sabbath day; but unlike his Jewish counterparts in Jerusalem, he taught the Gentiles that they being Gentiles need not adhere to Jewish customs. They need only choose to follow the teachings of Jesus if they desired salvation. The gentile converts to Judaism then attended synagogue as Paul and the twelve disciples of Jesus; and also as Jesus did every sabbath day, to listen to the teachings of Jesus as taught by Jesus' twelve disciples; and Jesus' apostle, Paul.

It is important to note that while Jesus was on earth; and despite being accused by the Jewish leadership of not following the Jewish laws; and which was a true accusation; otherwise Jesus would have been as false as those he proclaimed false...that never did he abandon His custom of worshipping His God on the sabbath day....and also neither did His twelve disciples abandon worshipping Hinon the sabbath day, even after Jesus had returned to heaven.
An account of how important Jewish laws and customs were followed by Jesus' twelve disciples is found in Acts chapter 21:20-22...The disciples said to Paul on Paul's return to Jerusalem.."...Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jesus there are [B]which believe;AND THEY ARE ALL ZEALOUS OF THE LAW"[meaning that the disciples as well as these Jews converted to Chritianity were still following the religion of Jesus, Judaism.]"...and they are informed of thee that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles TO FORSAKE MOSES......What is it therefore? The multitude must needs come together[a riot is now brewing]for they will hear that thou art come. They then instructed Paul to identify with Jewish customs and practice one of the Jewish rituals; which after accomplishing, Paul would go to the Temple and present himself to the a priest....with a view that "all may know that that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; BUT THAT THOU THYSELF ALSO WALKEST ORDERLY, AND KEEPEST THE LAW".Verse 24.

Not even one "hot under the collar" can deny that the religion of Jesus as practiced by Jesus and Jesus' twelve disciples and the apostle Paul was the religion of Judaism with its customs and traditions as would be allowed; but as would not contravene the religion of Judaism as taught by Jesus.


precept

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Okay; let's try again.

Originally Posted by precept

Where do the popes go when they die?

John Paul died recently and according to his current successor, who was his previous trusted aide..."John Paul is in heaven looking down, and blessing the faithful form his papal window in heaven". If this is true; are all the other 263 popes at their own individual papal windows; or do they take turns at the one assigned heavenly papal window!

Just let us assume that all the popes are in heaven. Do they all bless the faithful on earth alongside God; or do they bless the faithful on earth despite God!

And John Paul for instance; does he look down on the faithful as they file by his dead corpse lying in the crypt below St.Peter's?

And when the faithful pray to one or other of their saints, presumably in heaven; does the particular saint represent the petiton of the faithful to one or other of the 264 popes in heaven; or does the particular saint represent the petitioner's request to Mary; and Mary to Jesus; or does the saint to which the request is presented, go directly to Jesus on behalf of the petitioner?

And what about all the faithful who died, and themselves are in heaven; do they also look down on their own dead corpses? And in heaven; to whom do they direct their devotion; do they direct their devotion to the siants, to the popes, to Mary, or to Jesus?

If there's any chance of getting this thread back on to the original track, I'd like to try. I am trying to ignore any unhelpful or goading comments from anyone in this thread because I know it is neither my task here nor within my abilities in general to change someone's mind or behaviour. I think these are some really interesting questions, and I find Catholicism fascinating in its complexity, and I appreciate the way it takes questions seriously and really tries to find answers. So, Q and any other Catholics out there, do you have any comments on these questions?