Posing a question (please move if posted in wrong forum)

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

I was going through a thread on the old Mothers Magic/Breathless Noon forum and I thought about posting a question that was brought up (Vajradhara already has the background information since the question was originally posted by a Buddhist and I thought I'd ask her first.)

The question posed was 'should a practitioner of a religion understand what is being recited by the particular temple/church/mosque/grove/etc? Or are the meditations/prayers "above" the practitioner's "need" to understand?' The original poster was a lady from Hong Kong who wasn't a Chinese speaker who asked for an English translation of the buddhist meditations and was chided for making a stupid request (just paraphrasing here.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine ( )

(edited by Bruce at Phyllis's request to fix a spelling error)

[The Fool]

If I may quickly chip in, my own interpretation is that the meaning of any ritual lays not in the words, but in how it focusses the individual and community.

Of course, the words themselves are not separate from the ritual itself, and would be expected to compliment it.

However, I would not expect the words of any ritual process to have the same percise meaning across individuals.

Of course, it helps to subscribe to something of the beliefs expoused in such ritual processes - though it is quite possible to take a somewhat "transcendent" meaning from religious ritual.

2c.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

generally speaking, it would rather depend on the school of Buddhism that one is engaged in.

for instance in a Zen setting, the answer would be to shut up and sit down... .and that my comprise the entireity of the answer.

from my schools point of view, we must have a sound logical basis for our understanding of the teachings, and as such, we make efforts to ensure that the relevant portions of text are transliterated into English.

i'm a bit tired now or i'd respond more to this..... though we did cover a lot in the PM's...

[Stormdancer]

I think a little understanding is a good thing.
actually,
I think a lot of understanding is a good thing.

[WHKeith]

I think much depends on the belief of the practitioner. Ritual can have tremendous power to it quite independent of the understanding of the practitioners. I'm thinking here of the Catholic Mass in Latin, and of Wiccans who perform "cookbook spells" without full understanding of what they're doing. To someone attuned to the ritual, the Latin Mass can be incredibly powerful and evocative, even if you don't understand a word. Cookbook spells (i.e. spells taken from a "how-to" book) can work, but may not be as effective or as successful as one created from scratch. Some ritual seems to have incredible power simply by virtue of the number of times people have performed it, and it's possible to tap into that even if you don't understand the words.

I'm an analytical beast, and prefer to understand what's going on and exactly why I'm doing something. Still, if something in an unintelligible service or ritual speaks directly to your subconscious--go with it! (I'm thinking of how moved I was, once, participating in a Native American pipe ceremony. I didn't understand what was being said, but--wow!) Even single words--the meditative "Om" is a good example--carry enormous power that too analytical an approach can short-circuit.

[louis]

Originally Posted by WHKeith

I think much depends on the belief of the practitioner. Ritual can have tremendous power to it quite independent of the understanding of the practitioners. I'm thinking here of the Catholic Mass in Latin, and of Wiccans who perform "cookbook spells" without full understanding of what they're doing. To someone attuned to the ritual, the Latin Mass can be incredibly powerful and evocative, even if you don't understand a word. Cookbook spells (i.e. spells taken from a "how-to" book) can work, but may not be as effective or as successful as one created from scratch. Some ritual seems to have incredible power simply by virtue of the number of times people have performed it, and it's possible to tap into that even if you don't understand the words.

I'm an analytical beast, and prefer to understand what's going on and exactly why I'm doing something. Still, if something in an unintelligible service or ritual speaks directly to your subconscious--go with it! (I'm thinking of how moved I was, once, participating in a Native American pipe ceremony. I didn't understand what was being said, but--wow!) Even single words--the meditative "Om" is a good example--carry enormous power that too analytical an approach can short-circuit.

From Louis...
I'm an "analytical beast" myself... the rational / thinking
side of my brain happens to be dominant. And for that
reason, any kind of ritual turns me off !
My typical approach to understanding something new is
to first reduce it to blunt, clear information. For that, I
need a direct, un-obstructed view.
Ritual is like a SMOKE SCREEN blocking my view -
my natural reaction is to either blow it away or back off
and wait for it to dissipate.

[StrangeQuark]

My experience with ritual is that it often opens the mind to things we don't normally perceive--in effect "lifting" the screen. It allows some people to attain a state of mind that is more receptive to the spiritual realm (for lack of a better term).

This is, of course, a psychological benefit (I think it's more but it doesn't have to be), and doesn't necessarily work for everyone.