Post-theistic Christianity "Other view"

[wil]

Originally Posted by YNOT

I think that Spong is saying that Christianity MUST take off its theistic, supernatural cloak or otherwise it will drown from being weighed down in postmodern waters. He is very adamant, and he makes a convincing case, that Christianity will die if it doesn't change. How it should change is certainly up for grabs, but change it must.

So a group of people started writing books a few decades after Jesus walked the earth...their veiwpoint, their memories, what they heard and or understood and or what they wanted others to think they heard and or understood...

Some argued about the correctness of the teachings and worried that it was being done all wrong....

Then a few centuries later another group got together and sorted thru the books and compiled them into the Book, and called it the word...they had a fistfight over the Trinity and voted the lead character in as a diety...

Many feared this was the end of the glory of christianity as the universal church told us what we could and could not think on the subject

Then centuries more down the road, that dogma was protested and there was a major reform movement, but even that movement couldn't agree and it became divided as well...

Again it appeared this could be the straw that broke the camel's back, christianity as we knew it would no longer exist, the disagreements were to vast..

How many times, how many ways will this go on? Do we truly think this is destroying christianity as we know it....or could it possibly be returning it to its true form, what was actually preached 2000 years ago?

I think that Spong is saying that Christianity MUST take off its theistic, supernatural cloak or otherwise it will drown from being weighed down in postmodern waters. He is very adamant, and he makes a convincing case, that Christianity will die if it doesn't change. How it should change is certainly up for grabs, but change it must.

Are we not just taking the cloaks off? Was Jesus teaching us supernatural thought, or natural things, which all men can do should they put their mind to it, should they decide to apply themselves to allowing spirit to work thru them...faith of a mustard seed...

I gotta get the book...

[YNOT]

wil, you bring up some very good thoughts.

Perhaps Christianity is changing as it has over the last two millenia and that, once again, it will be better off for it. Let's try an analogy...Christianity (and other religions as well) suffers from supernatural obesity. There have been many revisions over the years....a little tummy tuck here, a little chin lift there. However, the naturalistic, post-theistic revolution will, I think, be a drastic reconstructive surgery complete with face-lift and stomach stapling. The resultant patient will be much better to look at and he/she will feel a whole lot better about him/herself. But of course the patients' heart will be the same. If we don't perform the surgery though, the patient will be unfortunately ostracized and will probably die.

When the obesity becomes bad enough, dieting and exercise alone will not work. Major surgery becomes the only alternative.

There are many "skinny" postmodern scientific/naturalistic humanists walking around that feel liberated and proud that they're not like that "obese Christian" over there. The problem is that the humanists are missing a wonderful opportunity to meet the beautiful heart of this suffering patient. The patient, likewise, is missing out on an opportunity to become a happier participant in the world with its naturalistic and scientific worldview.

Anyway, I can't exhaust this analogy any further.

You and I are singin' the same song dude.

Peace,
Tony

[YNOT]

By the way wil,

What part of Maryland are you from? My parents live in Jarrettsville which is in Harford County. We are about 15 minutes north of Bel Air.

Just curious.

[wil]

Bowie/PG County...smack dab between DC and Annapolis, due south of Baltimore...

[YNOT]

Originally Posted by wil

Bowie/PG County...smack dab between DC and Annapolis, due south of Baltimore...

cool

I went to Univ. of MD and UMBC in the 90's. My father would take me crabbing in Annapolis when I was a little tike. My wife, children and I spend the summer in Ocean City. Small world, huh?

[YNOT]

Originally Posted by YNOT

cool

I went to Univ. of MD and UMBC in the 90's. My father would take me crabbing in Annapolis when I was a little tike. My wife, children and I spend the summer in Ocean City. Small world, huh?

If you're a Ravens fan, we'll have to start a new thread.

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by YNOT

To me at least, God is not a being but being itself. God does not love us, God IS love. God does not create life, God IS life.

Nicely put.

Cool avatar, btw.

[YNOT]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

Nicely put.

Cool avatar, btw.

Thank you Aletheia. Your avatar is nice as well.

Caio

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by YNOT

To me at least, God is not a being but being itself. God does not love us, God IS love. God does not create life, God IS life.

Yes, God is Being. God is love and loves us. God creates life and God is life.

I have not read a lot of Spong, but I usually find myself enjoying what little I've read. Sometimes I wonder if where I think I differ from him is merely in semantics, or perhaps in the way we view metaphor. But, in the way it has been presented in the posts above I disagree with a "post-theism" Christianity. That's really throwing the baby out with the bath. And we don't need to 'modernize' Christianity--I think more Christians just need to dive a little deeper into what Christianity is all about and not settle for a Sunday School version of God. Not that anyone has to do this, but if someone is considering rejecting Christiantiy they really should learn more about what it is they are rejecting. They may find it is not what they think it is. I made this mistake myself.

Much of what I've read above, to be honest, strikes me as a New Age tendency that really is a very time-worn tendency to put ourselves in the driver's seat.

Spong wants to 'move beyond' a supernatural explanation of Christ, as do other Bible scholars like Borg and Corssan (I think). That seems to me to be embracing the materialism that our Christian faith offers to get take us beyond. I do not look for supernatural explanations to fill in my understanding of the workings of our material universe. I probably believe in a lot fewer 'supernatural' things than most other people on this forum. All healing is spiritual healing. So what if it is accomplished by the forgiveness of sin or by a $500K per year neuro- surgeon? What happens in church every Sunday is supernatural: the Divine breaks through. If God is not supernatural, what is? What happens when I pray? What happens when I read the Bible? God breaks through.

It is about elevating the ordinary to the extraordinary.

It is not the robes and the choir and the artwork and the lofty language. It is God among us. Look! The Kingdom of God is within us.

[YNOT]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Yes, God is Being. God is love and loves us. God creates life and God is life.

I have not read a lot of Spong, but I usually find myself enjoying what little I've read. Sometimes I wonder if where I think I differ from him is merely in semantics, or perhaps in the way we view metaphor. But, in the way it has been presented in the posts above I disagree with a "post-theism" Christianity. That's really throwing the baby out with the bath. And we don't need to 'modernize' Christianity--I think more Christians just need to dive a little deeper into what Christianity is all about and not settle for a Sunday School version of God. Not that anyone has to do this, but if someone is considering rejecting Christiantiy they really should learn more about what it is they are rejecting. They may find it is not what they think it is. I made this mistake myself.

Much of what I've read above, to be honest, strikes me as a New Age tendency that really is a very time-worn tendency to put ourselves in the driver's seat.

Spong wants to 'move beyond' a supernatural explanation of Christ, as do other Bible scholars like Borg and Corssan (I think). That seems to me to be embracing the materialism that our Christian faith offers to get take us beyond. I do not look for supernatural explanations to fill in my understanding of the workings of our material universe. I probably believe in a lot fewer 'supernatural' things than most other people on this forum. All healing is spiritual healing. So what if it is accomplished by the forgiveness of sin or by a $500K per year neuro- surgeon? What happens in church every Sunday is supernatural: the Divine breaks through. If God is not supernatural, what is? What happens when I pray? What happens when I read the Bible? God breaks through.

It is about elevating the ordinary to the extraordinary.

It is not the robes and the choir and the artwork and the lofty language. It is God among us. Look! The Kingdom of God is within us.

Hi lunamoth...It is a pleasure to meet you.

I really can't find any serious areas of disagreement here. I think we are on the same page. A post-theistic Christianity is for us "believers in exile" who simply cannot subscribe any longer to a patriarchal God who demands our obediance with threats of damnation. As wil said (and I'm paraphrasing), this was a pre-axial understanding that made sense to people living in AD 50-whenever.

I don't feel you are saying this, I'm just asking rhetorically:
I just don't see why I cannot be called a Christian if I wish to remove its' supernatural cultural trappings. What Spong does for me and people like me is to make us feel welcome in a church that, unfortunately sometimes, doesn't want us there. I love Jesus. I feel, though, that I can approach him better when I know that he is different in degree rather than in kind.

Namaste,
Y

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by YNOT

Hi lunamoth...It is a pleasure to meet you.

I really can't find any serious areas of disagreement here. I think we are on the same page. A post-theistic Christianity is for us "believers in exile" who simply cannot subscribe any longer to a patriarchal God who demands our obediance with threats of damnation. As wil said (and I'm paraphrasing), this was a pre-axial understanding that made sense to people living in AD 50-whenever.

I don't feel you are saying this, I'm just asking rhetorically:
I just don't see why I cannot be called a Christian if I wish to remove its' supernatural cultural trappings. What Spong does for me and people like me is to make us feel welcome in a church that, unfortunately sometimes, doesn't want us there. I love Jesus. I feel, though, that I can approach him better when I know that he is different in degree rather than in kind.

Namaste,
Y

Hi Y, and it is a pleasure to meet you as well! I'm not in disagreement, in fact I bet we are pretty close. I just wonder exactly which 'supernatural cultural trappings' you need to remove?

I think Spong is great in that he opens the door to many Christians who have come to feel alienated because a literal-factual translation of the Bible just does not compute, in many ways. It does not compute for me either! When I returned to Christianity I found the writings of Marcus Borg and Dominck Crossan. These satisfied my intellect while at the same time thawing my heart. I don't agree with them on every point, but we all grow and change. I've even seen change in Borg's view of Christ from one of his books to another. It might not do the same for you, or for others. Anyone or anything that opens the door to faith is great as far as I am concerned. It's a process. Salvation is a relationship with God and you start wherever you are.

Peace,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by YNOT

A post-theistic Christianity is for us "believers in exile" who simply cannot subscribe any longer to a patriarchal God who demands our obediance with threats of damnation. Y

Hi again, just wanted to respond to this one point. I don't believe in a patriarchal God Who demands our obedieance with threats of damnation, and I am most definitely a Christian and not a 'Christian in exile!' Some TULIPS might think I'm going to hell in a handbasket, but fortunately for me my salvation is not up to them. Nor is yours. Welcome home.

lunamoth

[wil]

Tulips??

Look it is safe to be Christian again!!

ie me thinks we are not alternative...

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by wil

Tulips??

Ah, sorry. That was too pointy, and certainly not directed at anyone in particular. But, there is a variety of expression of the Christian faith and what it means to find our salvation in Christ is a unique experience, even when practiced as part of a community, the Body of Christ.

Look it is safe to be Christian again!!

It's always been safe to be a Christian.

ie me thinks we are not alternative...

I guess I don't know what it means to be an 'alternative' Christian, and I also don't feel that I'm in any position to say who is a 'true believer.' To me Christianity is defined by the creeds. That is where I start.

peace, and no offense intended
lunamoth

[YNOT]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Y, and it is a pleasure to meet you as well! I'm not in disagreement, in fact I bet we are pretty close. I just wonder exactly which 'supernatural cultural trappings' you need to remove?

I think Spong is great in that he opens the door to many Christians who have come to feel alienated because a literal-factual translation of the Bible just does not compute, in many ways. It does not compute for me either! When I returned to Christianity I found the writings of Marcus Borg and Dominck Crossan. These satisfied my intellect while at the same time thawing my heart. I don't agree with them on every point, but we all grow and change. I've even seen change in Borg's view of Christ from one of his books to another. It might not do the same for you, or for others. Anyone or anything that opens the door to faith is great as far as I am concerned. It's a process. Salvation is a relationship with God and you start wherever you are.

Peace,
lunamoth

Yes lunamoth we are certainly of one mind and heart on this. I don't want to suggest that I was speaking for you when I said that many of us are "believers in exile". I was raised Catholic and I had to go through a long period of deprogramming and atheism before I could "turn the light around" and see that salvation/enlightenment was, and this is IMHO, already under my nose and not a goal to be reached. I think that this was Jesus' good news....that we are already saved! I don't even think there is anything in particular that I need to believe; Jesus' love for his brothers and sisters is something I can experience for myself living right here on Earth.

The supernatural cultural trappings are a virgin birth, miracles attributed to Jesus, a literal interpretation of the incarnation of God into Jesus, seeing Jesus as the paschal lamb that must atone for our sins, original sin, his body ascending into heaven after being dead for three days and the like. Of course we can view all of this with metaphor in mind. I wish I could do a better job of explaining Spong's point of view as he certainly says it better. I really recommend his book A New Christianity for a New World. I have read a book by Borg...the title escapes me now...I think it was Seeing Jesus Again for the First Time.

As you said, we all open our own door to faith. Unfortunately, from my own experience, I have rarely been in environments (excluding my own household) where alternative interpretations of any kind were welcome.
To me, salvation is seeing that the relationship to God is really a relationship with the divine spark that has always existed within me. Divinity, IMHO, has nothing to do with supernatural ideas and everything to do with transcending the limitless capacity of human love. That "divinity" was in Jesus. And it is also the same in you and me. No beliefs necessary. What a liberating relief it is to know this. I think that coming to this understanding of our own "divinity" is truly the "second coming of Christ"!

With peace and loving-kindness,
Tony