Post-theistic Christianity "Other view"

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dor!

Good to see you around!

Well everyone it seems has a place on these forums to post there thoughts and believes just seems the "mainstream"'s place is shrinking daily

I hardly see how one post is causing the mainstream section to be "shrinking daily"... Yes, there are concerns, and so far it seems those concerns are being handled well.

...but just cause you name your dog "cat" doesnt make it a cat....just cause you want to call your self christian after taking Christ out of it leaves you with a ian not what you want to be called.....calling Sponge and anything he writes Christian....is like calling a flame cold it just doesnt work

On some level I agree with you. However, if I were to exclude all of those who did not think or believe as I do, my world would grow very small. This is an exercise, not in acceptance of alternate views, but of being able to disagree with respect. There are many whose views I disagree with, yet I still love them and care about them. This thread is a chance to look beyond our disagreements, and at least be civil towards each other.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Excellent post path! You might be surprised if you knew how little I disagree with what you've said.



I don't know if this is going to make any sense, but I think that turning the metaphysical into an actual event destroys both the mystery and the miracle. This is a uniquely modern problem. You may have gathered from what I've said that I only value deductive and rational reasoning, but that's not true. What I'm leary of is rationalizing the mystical. I'm not saying that the metaphysical should be kept strictly seperate from the physical, just that the symbiosis, if you will, of the two, it seems to me, is destroyed by forcing the mystical to become deducible. (I've been reading stuff on postmodernism and it's turned my mind into a pretzel, so if that doesn't make any sense don't feel bad.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "supernatural". I see all of life as a sacred, magical experience. Could you give me an example of something supernatural that you've experienced? I mean, something that defies the laws of nature.

Chris

OH! OK- we're far closer than I thought. I misunderstood you. Heh-heh- easy to do in these sorts of communication forums with the lack of face-to-face contact.

Yes, basically I agree with this, at least for myself. I don't focus on the literal, but rather the meaning for me, for my life, behind the event. I think both the camps that debunk and the camps that try to prove how everything miraculous occured are missing the point- these are stories on which to meditate for deeper wisdom and understanding. The Bible to me is a text that is personally transformative, if I read it with a spirit open to God. If I'm just worrying if there are any other accounts of people living inside whales or virgins getting pregnant, I'm wasting my time, in my opinion. That isn't the point of the story. This is the part of Spong I agree with. But that doesn't mean I think we ought to get rid of all the stories and miracles either. A shift in focus rather than a shift in text is what I personally follow. For example, all the stories about Jesus working miracles- I don't think we should get rid of them or ignore them, but rather that our focus should be on their meaning for our own lives, rather than a simple memorization, acceptance, and recitation of what Jesus did. There is deep meaning for me in Jesus healing the woman who bled for years when she touched the hem of His garment, of healing the blind and deaf and mute, of healing those who could not walk, of healing the leper. I believe there is symbolism there. It is not that Jesus could not or did not do these miracles- I believe He did. But I don't think whether He did or not matters as much as the symbolic meaning of these healings and what it implies for my own life. He can take away my limitations (my failure to hear, see, speak the truth), my weaknesses, my suffering, and my sin. And all it takes is faith and my reaching out to Him. But without the stories of the miracles, without the stories of the literal events, I would not have had the opportunity to draw these conclusions.

As for the supernatural- I do see the world the way you describe, which was partly what I was getting at. The natural world itself, to me, is sacred and magical, as you put it. There is no clear boundary for me what is natural and what is supernatural. What I was saying is that I have experienced things that most would classify as supernatural. I make no distinction for myself.

For example, as a child I had visions of world events happening in other countries. I was a sheltered kid and poor- we had no TV, no news, and I was not told about these things by others. But I knew them anyway and started telling people as soon as I could talk. I had visions of God, heaven, etc. starting about five. The intensity of these experiences wax and wane over the years. I've seen people, including my mother, healed from near death when nothing was being done for them by medicine. I often can sense people's emotions, thoughts, health, and even energies and spirits. I'm generally right. (Edited to add- about when I sense others' thoughts/emotions/health. Of course, no way to tell for the energies/spirits and I'm often wrong about LOTS of other things! )

Are these events natural or supernatural? On the one hand, it is entirely natural to me that I receive information sometimes the way that I do. I think there is, in some ways, a pool of information and thoughts out there in the world and sometimes my brain picks up whatever is out there. I think it is natural to experience God, and if one is attentive, other spiritual entities. On the other hand, society and science defines most of this stuff as supernatural. I don't think these things go against the laws of nature, I just think we don't understand the laws very well yet. I look out at the world and see one that is filled with energies, forces, individual spirits, and God. I see this as the foundation for the physical manifestation that is more apparent, if that makes any sense.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by path of one

I don't focus on the literal, but rather the meaning for me, for my life, behind the event. I think both the camps that debunk and the camps that try to prove how everything miraculous occured are missing the point- these are stories on which to meditate for deeper wisdom and understanding. The Bible to me is a text that is personally transformative, if I read it with a spirit open to God. If I'm just worrying if there are any other accounts of people living inside whales or virgins getting pregnant, I'm wasting my time, in my opinion. That isn't the point of the story. This is the part of Spong I agree with. But that doesn't mean I think we ought to get rid of all the stories and miracles either. A shift in focus rather than a shift in text is what I personally follow.

Yes, I completely agree. You have a gift for expression which I greatly admire!

I see a great deal of value in ritual and symbolic expression. I'm not a particularly "overt" ceremonialist, however. What I mean is that I don't have a special area in my psyche set aside for big ceremonial productions. I have little rituals and ceremonial stuff going on all the time. Really I'm celebrating the natural and mundane. Every little thing becomes meaningful and worth observing. It's amazing to see the Logos playing its patterns through everything and know that I'm participating, and that it's all connected.

Today I was planing a piece of wood and just loving how my body worked with the material and the tool, and watching the curly little shavings come off. There are elements of the mystical, ritual, cermonial involved in all the little things we do and observe. The more I look the more I see. The more i see the more I am.

Chris

[Dor]

Hey just one thought on the whole evolving or devolving state of things.....if we are evolving that would mean we are getting better, right??

Well the ark was built by amateurs while the Titanic was built by professionals yet the ark made it 40 days and nights while Titanic made it 3 hrs....

[Dor]

Hey just one thought on the whole evolving or devolving state of things.....if we are evolving that would mean we are getting better, right??

Well the ark was built by amateurs while the Titanic was built by professionals yet the ark made it 40 days and nights while Titanic made it 3 hrs....

[China Cat Sunflower]

Yeah, but the ark took over a hundred years to build! Imagine what old Noah could've done with a sawzall!

Chris

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dor

Hey just one thought on the whole evolving or devolving state of things.....if we are evolving that would mean we are getting better, right??

Well the ark was built by amateurs while the Titanic was built by professionals yet the ark made it 40 days and nights while Titanic made it 3 hrs....

i think the ark made it for several months because that is how God is to the faithful. Noah followed the directions & even the amateurs today agree the directions to build it say it was correct for that flood. God is perfect in all his ways.
Dor, i still believe in Noah & a real Ark & i always will, so you are not alone here. i know some people make fun of me for belieivng that but it does not bother me any more.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Dor, i still believe in Noah & a real Ark & i always will, so you are not alone here. i know some people make fun of me for belieivng that but it does not bother me any more.

No Bandit I know we are not alone and people do make fun but guess what we are not the first ones they have made fun of and we will NEVER be alone.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Faithfulservant!

Good to see you around!


In light of what has gone on in the past, Q and I thought it best to specially mark this thread for the benefit of those with "mainstream" Christian views to note that the discussion was decidedly non-mainstream.

This is a bit of an experiment, to see if the two camps can co-exist peacefully. So far, so good in my estimation, but time will tell. By marking the thread in the manner we did, it allows our mainstream contributors a little notice that they may wish to avoid it if it seems too challenging or appears somehow threatening. We do not wish to offend anyone, least of all those who have taken the time to build this portion of the forum. At least, that is how I see this right now.

Hope this helps!

Ok Im going to say this.. because Ive read parts of Spong's book.. I repeat.. I would not put him on my bookshelf.. he rejects every fundamental belief I have.. the 5 fundamentals of Christianity he rejects and says so himself.. That ppl who consider themselves Christians believe him MORE viable than the word of God tells me that we are not on the same belief system.

Many of us have been taking a stand on this forum against those who wish to discredit our beliefs its been a lot of work having to defend our faith to ppl rather than being able to have a healthy discussion on those beliefs.. Im not going to mention names but let me tell you I have some sore spots from them still.

I wonder if thipps would sticky a thread about an ex-muslim turned Christian posting his newfound disbliefs in the Quran.. or would Bananabrain post a sticky about Jew for Jesus stating why he believes Jesus is the Messiah..?? Im all woman and very emotional maybe but I feel that you and Q have both betrayed the "posters that have built this forum to where it is" by allowing this thread to continue on in this manner.. This grand experiment of yours feels like a slap in the face to those of us who have fought for the same peace of home feeling that Islam and Judiasm forums have accomplished. We have to fight daily against that which wishes to persecute us for our beliefs.. and we finally get as close as we can get here on this forum and something like this is 2 steps back..

I dont know what you and Q visualize for this forum and I recognize that none of us have a choice but to be quiet and put up with it... so be it.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Just wanted to point out that Spong is an Episcopal Bishop. You can't get much more mainstream than that. Secondly, minus his own personal ideosyncracies, what Spong is reporting vis a vis the questionable historicity of the gospel accounts reflects the current point of view of objective biblical scholarship. The fact that this information is intentionally prevented from filtering down to the parishoner in the pew shows just how dislexic the dichotomy between religious academia and the rank and file is. IOW, what Spong is saying has been an open secret for some time, but no one at the top of the church hierarchy has risked informing the parishoners for fear of disillusioning them. I suppose the organization can ill afford to lose the financial support of its members.

Chris

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Ok Im going to say this.. because Ive read parts of Spong's book.. I repeat.. I would not put him on my bookshelf.. he rejects every fundamental belief I have.. the 5 fundamentals of Christianity he rejects and says so himself.. That ppl who consider themselves Christians believe him MORE viable than the word of God tells me that we are not on the same belief system.

Many of us have been taking a stand on this forum against those who wish to discredit our beliefs its been a lot of work having to defend our faith to ppl rather than being able to have a healthy discussion on those beliefs.. Im not going to mention names but let me tell you I have some sore spots from them still.

I wonder if thipps would sticky a thread about an ex-muslim turned Christian posting his newfound disbliefs in the Quran.. or would Bananabrain post a sticky about Jew for Jesus stating why he believes Jesus is the Messiah..?? Im all woman and very emotional maybe but I feel that you and Q have both betrayed the "posters that have built this forum to where it is" by allowing this thread to continue on in this manner.. This grand experiment of yours feels like a slap in the face to those of us who have fought for the same peace of home feeling that Islam and Judiasm forums have accomplished. We have to fight daily against that which wishes to persecute us for our beliefs.. and we finally get as close as we can get here on this forum and something like this is 2 steps back..

I dont know what you and Q visualize for this forum and I recognize that none of us have a choice but to be quiet and put up with it... so be it.

I'm sorry Faithful but I think you are being very unfair here. The Five Fundamentals that you have as the foundation of your faith do not define Christianity for everyone, just as the Nicene Creed, the Book of Mormon, the Watchtower publications, etc. do not. There is a huge range of belief in Christianity and even the fact that you adhere to a non-denominational Bible based Christianity is possible only because during the Reformation some courageous souls spoke out against the dominate authority and definition of Christianity of the day. Whether they were right to do so (and I think it was part of God's plan) will only be known to us on the other side, but I think you must agree that they were right.

No one is asking you to agree with them. For goodness sake, most of the replies have disagreed with the OP! Mine included, although some took liberties to spin more seeming agreement than I gave in their replies. The mere fact that these posts are taking up electrons on this forum does not constitute an attack on anyone's beliefs nor a show of disrespect for Christianity. It is NOT the same as posting a Messianic Jews post in Judaism or a Christian convert post in the Islam board, although it might be a lot like the very civil and interesting conversation between BananaBrain and dauer in the Questions about Judaism thread on the Judaism board here.

You are a valued member here and I always enjoy hearing your perspective, even though I disagree with many things that you say. And you probably disagree with many things I say. But for goodness sake, my beliefs are about as mainstream as you can get! The OP pushes the limit on what is Christiantiy, and in my book anyway it actually goes too far. But, where is a conversation like this going to take place, where those who question just what exactly is Christianity and where they fit in, and those who reply to them going to go? My take on is that if you disagree, well, say so and say why and back it up as you do so very well. (Which is why I especially enjoy reading your posts). But lets not take offense and stop all conversation because the topic is controversial. Please. You know that if this conversation were put in the alternative area, where it could still end up depending on how things go, many Christians with valuable things to contribute to the conversation (such as yourself) will simply stay away. And that is a loss.

Peace,
lunamoth

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Just wanted to point out that Spong is an Episcopal Bishop. You can't get much more mainstream than that. Secondly, minus his own personal ideosyncracies, what Spong is reporting vis a vis the questionable historicity of the gospel accounts reflects the current point of view of objective biblical scholarship. The fact that this information is intentionally prevented from filtering down to the parishoner in the pew shows just how dislexic the dichotomy between religious academia and the rank and file is. IOW, what Spong is saying has been an open secret for some time, but no one at the top of the church hierarchy has risked informing the parishoners for fear of disillusioning them. I suppose the organization can ill afford to lose the financial support of its members.

Chris

His "personal idiosyncracies" are blasphemous...

Christ wasnt buried in a tomb he had to have been buried as a criminal.. which denies the OT messianic prophecy that Christ fulfilled..

Judas Iscariot was invented as an excuse to persecute Jews??

The virginal conception was a mistranslation??

He doesnt believe in miracles so Jesus could not have been resurrected bodily??

This guy is a people pleaser saying what ppl want to hear.. only using scripture when it benefits his sugar coated anti Christ propaganda.

If this is considered mainstream theology then I dont want any part of it..

The fact that you say Spong has secret access to information that denies what Christians for 2k years have believed seriously denotes a bit of egomania shared with this preacher of satan world views.. I cannot in all honestly take anything you say seriously and I believe that you are posting stuff like that to get a rise out of posters on this board. Believe it or not.. this is a normal occurance here.

We must all be a bunch of monkeys that cant be disillusioned for fear of losing our stash of bananas!! Give me a break.

[lunamoth]

FWIW, Spong is far from being universally embraced by mainstream Christianity, even among Episcoplains, and Episcopalian Priests. As I and so many others in this thread have already said, he is throwing out the pillars of the Church. If what he proposes is what was represented in YNOTS posts, then he is suggesting secular humanism with Jesus as a figurehead, not a Christianity I could accept.

And, having said that again, I do not read Spong's books, not because I feel like I'd be blaspheming and inviting the anti-Christ into my livingroom, but because so far from all I've heard, there is simply nothing there for me.

sheesh,
lunamoth

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

His "personal idiosyncracies" are blasphemous...

Christ wasnt buried in a tomb he had to have been buried as a criminal.. which denies the OT messianic prophecy that Christ fulfilled..

Judas Iscariot was invented as an excuse to persecute Jews??

The virginal conception was a mistranslation??

He doesnt believe in miracles so Jesus could not have been resurrected bodily??

This guy is a people pleaser saying what ppl want to hear.. only using scripture when it benefits his sugar coated anti Christ propaganda.

If this is considered mainstream theology then I dont want any part of it..

The fact that you say Spong has secret access to information that denies what Christians for 2k years have believed seriously denotes a bit of egomania shared with this preacher of satan world views.. I cannot in all honestly take anything you say seriously and I believe that you are posting stuff like that to get a rise out of posters on this board. Believe it or not.. this is a normal occurance here.

We must all be a bunch of monkeys that cant be disillusioned for fear of losing our stash of bananas!! Give me a break.

Now wait a minute...I didn't say the parishoners are stupid or dislexic, just that there is a dislexic dichotomy between religious academia and the parishoners. Spong broke the unspoken rule that you don't publish this stuff outside the cloisters of academia.

Chris

[Faithfulservant]

I think what my real problem is.. I cant stand drama.. I live with 3 teenage girls and my world is flat out drama.. I believe the bible I believe that we are not supposed to argue Christ and the bible.. we are supposed to share it.. I live by this. I dont want to have to argue whether the bible is true or not.. I do want to share why I believe the bible is true.. Thats what I thought my freedom was on this forum.. I believe this thread is an opening for discord and my battle is in trying to maintain a peaceful place to discuss differing beliefs....

I believed this forum was so perfect for me because I had an opportunity to Share my beliefs in a healthy discussion rather than argue my beliefs in angst and drama.. if you cant see what Im saying luna than I dont know what else to say..

I always admired your gentle peacefulness even though we dont always see eye to eye.. I would not have thought you would embrace a free for all mentality where anyone can post what they want with no consequence and that is my fear as a result of this thread.