Pot and kettle anyone?

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by Pathless

the Nazis, who revered a certain type of Christ after all

Only in the same way that the Khmer Rouge "revered a certain type of Christ", or the Maoists "revered a certain type of Christ", or the North Korean government "reveres a certain type of Christ".

[Operacast]

* bump *

[Operacast]

Originally Posted by Dogbrain

Only in the same way that the Khmer Rouge "revered a certain type of Christ", or the Maoists "revered a certain type of Christ", or the North Korean government "reveres a certain type of Christ".

Actually, it's an urban myth that Nazi philosophy was in any way atheistic. It wasn't. The philosophy of the Khmer Rouge or the Maoists was, but Nazism wasn't.

[WARNING: As a believer myself, I still feel there's nothing more important than freedom of thought so long as (to use Jefferson's formulation) it "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg"; consequently, the reader should be prepared for some strong language coming up here, because I deeply resent any attempt to tar minority views -- in this case, nonbelief -- with monsters like Hitler or whoever in a blatant attempt to deny the basic humanity of (in this case, but it could be any group of subscribers to any given philosophy) all those who may subscribe to atheism.]

Hitler, an obvious monster, never subscribed to anything remotely skeptical at all! He referred again and again to the "importance" of God as something to be worshiped and to the "wrongs" of the Jews in "distorting" God. This monster did express a Nietzschean impatience with the Christian notion of respecting the weak. But being anti-Christian is not being an atheist, particularly when one considers some of Hitler's own statements where he specifically voiced the hope that atheism would be stamped out for good! That was his (hostile) attitude to atheism.

When people elsewhere try and point out, in response to this correction, that [paraphrase] "we can't really be sure what his private beliefs really were", that's when I really get boiling mad, frankly. It's just obvious to me that, by hook or by crook, believers who claim atheism for Hitler are really more interested in tarring atheism with monsters like Hitler than in "tarring" Hitler with atheism. The subtext is "oh, if one's an atheist, then one must be a Hitler!":-( So when someone tries -- in response to this uncomfortable correction that Hitler really was a believer, but not a Christian -- to bring in the question of Hitler's private thoughts on this, that is so not the point at issue -- and I have a feeling that obfuscators who attempt that dodge know that that's not the point and are just trying to keep alive the notion that Hitler was an atheist anyway, in any (dishonest) way they can. They are first shown up as liars when claiming that Hitler ever said anything of the kind, and then when that's shown up as a lie, they try sustaining that lie through the back door.

The point about Hitler's private thoughts is a complete red herring: it suggests that Hitler may have really been an atheist and none of us any the wiser on that. Well — DUH! Any historical figure of whose private life we know little — Shak[e]speare, for instance — might have been an atheist and we none the wiser. So what? Obviously, any believer can impute atheism to ANY historical figure who appears as a shadowy figure in his private life, or who has come off as especially unethical in the pages of history, or both. Convenient, yes. Pertinent here, NO!!!!!!!

Some confound skepticism-towards-Christianity with atheism. Cute, I must say.

The point is that tooooooooooooo many people deliberately claim that Hitler CLAIMED to be an atheist when Hitler CLAIMED no such thing whatever, and in fact CLAIMED otherwise many a time! Was he a non-Christian? Very likely. Was he of another faith? Also very likely. Ultimately, he claimed to be a believer in a deity of some sort, said nothing to contradict that, and those that claim he ever specifically claimed to be an atheist are

L Y I N G !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The false claims in this regard that I've read rarely stop at merely saying "Oh, that man Hitler was an atheist". Nine times out of ten, they are far more explicit and go much further — and deliberately, maliciously, falsely so: they say specifically that Hitler specifically SAYS that he (Hitler) is an atheist! THAT is the BIG LIE here. Hitler never SAID any such thing — period, end of paragraph.

I call believers on their false claim that Hitler SAID he was an unbeliever. Hitler SAID no such thing. And saying that Hitler SAID such a thing happens to be one big lie. Moreover, it deliberately obfuscates the issue to introduce the notion that Hitler's private thoughts are somehow relevant here.

They AREN'T!!!!!!!!!

O.K., rant over.

Operacast

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Listening this morning, the news from the two states which wish to leave Georgia and become part of Russia are claiming attempted genocide on the side of the Georgians and US involvement. There were reports of house to house killings of civilians, numbers vary 500-5,000...

We've now got the third story from locals which coincides with a Georgia attack on the seperatists and Russia coming to their defense. This is exactly contrary to what has been portrayed in US news reports and much more inline with what Russia has been saying all along.

So if this is the beginning of a new cold war, it is not apparent yet that Russia is the instigator.

Interesting, considering the Georgians filed a case against Russia in the World Court, and Russia is being investigated by that body (not Georgia), and the Russians just now began a sudden and mass pullout of Georgia.

Something about satellite video footage catching the whole week...

The Russians have been instigating since 1994. This is nothing new.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Interesting, considering the Georgians filed a case against Russia in the World Court, and Russia is being investigated by that body (not Georgia), and the Russians just now began a sudden and mass pullout of Georgia.

Russians agreed to back off if Georgia backed off three days ago. Q, how many times does the world court investigate the defendent vs. look at the accuser??

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Russians agreed to back off if Georgia backed off three days ago. Q, how many times does the world court investigate the defendent vs. look at the accuser??

Uh uh wil, this case is going on. The World court agreed there was a case to be considered...WORLD COURT, not US court...

Georgia doesn't back off in their own land.

[Operacast]

Originally Posted by wil

It appears Miss Rice in Georgia July 9, and then Karl Rove and Blair and Saakashvili met in Yalta...Shades of the meeting between our Ambassador and Saddam prior to Kuwait.

So maybe 200 years ago Russia absorbed Georgia, and these border provinces which are mostly Russian, not Geogian, don't wanna be with Georgia, hence their separation..and the west it appears has now encouraged Georgia to move a pawn, and if Russia were to advance a knight, we'd back up with some bishops and rooks. The chess game is afoot yet again.

I can think of another land who absorbed a bunch of area in the past 200 years....overtaking people with their own language and society.

Pot and Kettle is right.

I came across someone on another forum who actually had the heart to think this bitter irony was vastly amusing. I candidly don't think it is at all, so I really let fly, I'm afraid. Now I'm wondering, Was I overreacting? (Please be frank [wouldn't be the first time I'm overreacting].)

===================================

[enclosure]

So glad you find this funny. My country paid in blood and treasure countless times over to bring freedom to people who were trapped in colonies brutally oppressed by King George. We inspired peoples everywhere to believe in humans -- not just humanity, but humans -- as each having the same inherent dignity that every pampered monarch had ever been accorded. That idea of liberty and equality submitted solemnly to all the world out of a "decent respect to the opinions of mankind" sparked changes throughout the globe, not quick enough to bring any instant utopia for humanity, but quick enough to transform the very idea of liberty from a whispered hope to a passion that dared speak its name from the rooftops. Our Constitution set a standard for the rule of law over even the mightiest of the mighty. Law and due process were more sacred now than the "sacred" right of kings after all. At the dawn of the new century, a court justice showed even a President that the law now stood over everyone without exception. Then, two generations later, countless lives were sacrificed to rid my country of the hideous stigma of slavery. The next century, we finally gave women the right to vote. And then we recognized the right to freedom from want and freedom from fear. And then countless more lives were sacrificed to prevent more than half the world being overtaken by fascism. Laws were conceived from the rubble of Nuremberg to defend the dignity of every human being, no matter their creed or nation, and to protect each and every person from arbitrary and cruel sequestration. And we subscribed to strengthened Geneva Conventions against unspeakable treatment of all prisoners, while a brave bereaved widow led the way in transforming a shredded League of Nations into the United Nations. Yet more lives were sacrificed in church bombings and in angry streets as we sought to redress the horrible inheritance of slavery. A man of peace and vision, and a very different King from King George, gave us his dream on a bright summer day, only to be martyred upon achieving a small precious part of that dream.

You can guffaw all you like, you can call this corny all you like, but the blood, sweat and tears shed at each and every one of these hurdles have sanctified -- yes, sanctified -- each of these achievements. They are sacred to me, and they are still sacred to millions of shocked and bewildered people throughout this country today. Of course, there have been betrayals of these principles in the past. Of course, our story has reflected the common moral frailties of all humanity. But the struggles against those very frailties have made the achievements that overcame those frailties yet more precious.

Now, we have a new King George. This King George brings war to people who never attacked us. This King George places the mightiest of the mighty above the law. This King George desecrates our Constitution. This King George traduces the rights to freedom from want and freedom from fear. This King George brings us something so close to fascism that its difference from fascism is scarcely worth a second thought. This King George takes people off the street and arbitrarily sequestrates them without due process and indefinitely. This King George throws out the Geneva Conventions and tortures prisoners. And this King George rejects any decent respect to the opinions of mankind as he betrays our solemn heritage in the United Nations.

Unless you live here, and live in a city where countless international visitors are seen every day, and unless you have to look these visitors in the eye every day and say "Yes, I live here; yes, I'm an American", you will never what real burning shame truly feels like. -- May you never know what real burning shame truly feels like.

==================================

Tha-tha-tha-that's all folks,

Operacast

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

.WORLD COURT, not US court...

lol, nearly wet myself laughing

[Tao_Equus]

Opera,

I like your passionate rendering of the value of altruism and its history in America. It holds many truths I hope to touch on when I conclude my response to you on the Judaism board.

tao

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

lol, nearly wet myself laughing

That could prove embarrasing...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Operacast

I came across someone on another forum who actually had the heart to think this bitter irony was vastly amusing. I candidly don't think it is at all, so I really let fly, I'm afraid. Now I'm wondering, Was I overreacting? (Please be frank [wouldn't be the first time I'm overreacting].)

===================================

[enclosure]


Now, we have a new King George. This King George brings war to people who never attacked us. This King George places the mightiest of the mighty above the law. This King George desecrates our Constitution. This King George traduces the rights to freedom from want and freedom from fear. This King George brings us something so close to fascism that its difference from fascism is scarcely worth a second thought. This King George takes people off the street and arbitrarily sequestrates them without due process and indefinitely. This King George throws out the Geneva Conventions and tortures prisoners. And this King George rejects any decent respect to the opinions of mankind as he betrays our solemn heritage in the United Nations.

Unless you live here, and live in a city where countless international visitors are seen every day, and unless you have to look these visitors in the eye every day and say "Yes, I live here; yes, I'm an American", you will never what real burning shame truly feels like. -- May you never know what real burning shame truly feels like.

==================================

Tha-tha-tha-that's all folks,

Operacast

Eh, "George" didn't do anything. The US congress did. And they never rescinded the order.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Eh, "George" didn't do anything. The US congress did. And they never rescinded the order.

I'm going to start billing you for diapers if you carry on like this

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I'm going to start billing you for diapers if you carry on like this

Perhaps a quick lesson in US government would spare you the need. Congress makes law, and starts wars...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Russians agreed to back off if Georgia backed off three days ago. Q, how many times does the world court investigate the defendent vs. look at the accuser??

Ironic...Russia still hasn't backed off, as of today...

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Perhaps a quick lesson in US government would spare you the need. Congress makes law, and starts wars...

lol....thank you Q.... but excuse me while I go put on another pair of the anti-jargon diapers.