Predestination vs. Free Will - Page 2

lunamoth · 05-24-2006, 03:41 PM

I don't believe in predestination in the sense that we will end up in a certain way regardless of the choices we make. Certainly much of our destiny is shaped by factors beyond our control, where we are born, what genes we inherit, etc.. In a way we are like a sailboat. We can't control the wind, but we can decide how to set our sails.

Everything we have is a gift, and God as omniscient knows what we will do with those gifts and how it all turns out for each of us, but this is different from Him choosing our destinies for us. Without free will we would be automotons, not free to love God or each other.

2 c,
lunamoth

wil · 05-24-2006, 04:02 PM

Seems to me we are predestined to find our way back to G-d, how it all happens is free will.

We go this way and that, take the wrong path, find some vices, ignore some virtues, commit some sin, break some commandments, but eventually the house wins and we find our way back home.

(no matter how many lifetimes it takes)

9Harmony · 05-24-2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I think we've all been called....

it is upto us to listen...

We all have the spark of G-d, of Christ, within us, the kingdom is within...it is our choice to go there.

Free will gives us the right to ignore spirit, to get kicked out of the garden, to choose our own path...to listen or not listen to that still small voice.

i agree.

on the issue of predestination, i think it's more along the lines that God knows us better than we know ourselves, so though we are not necessarily predestined for anything inparticular, God knows what our choices will be before we do.

path_of_one · 05-25-2006, 04:46 AM

That's pretty much my take on it, 9Harmony.

We're all chosen. And I do tend to think we all make it back to God somehow. This is God's stated will- that we all come to be in communion with Him. I don't see how our puny selves can really, in the end, thwart God's will for us. He's omnipotent- so His will will be done.

We can thwart this will temporarily in our lives and in broader ways on earth. But what we perceive to be so linear and neat and tidy- time marching along in one direction, with our choices and their consequences in similar progression- is clearly not so for God, whom we can't begin to understand, and isn't even founded on what we know to be the case in modern physics.

I think this debate is partially a result of our being stuck in incorrect understandings of time, space, cause-effect events, and how this might relate to an omnipotent, omniscient Being that exists outside all this (eternal and infinite- basically without placement in space-time). I've been reading some really interesting work by astrophysicists and it's dovetailing nicely with my long-held suspicions that much of our difficulties with interpreting the scriptures and the nature of the relationship between God and humanity, as well as Christ's gift of salvation, are a result of our mental limitations rather than real contradiction.

juantoo3 · 05-25-2006, 09:08 AM

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

Quote:

Yes, but look at where they all are standing and worshipping--before the throne of God in Heaven. So how can you say they are on the Earth?

I believe mee was referring to the earth after the millenial rule spoken of in Isaiah and other OT prophets. This is long after Har-Meggido (Armageddon), after satan is bound for a thousand years, after the wolf sleeps with the lamb, after we beat our swords into ploughshares and do not learn war anymore, after Messiah walks among us teaching us all ("the whole world") correctly, after satan is loosed "for a little season," and after satan is ultimately destroyed along with all who follow satan instead after all that was done. This "paradise on earth" may very well not be in a physical form, that much I struggle with, it may well be in "angelic" bodies. But if I am to believe the Bible and the prophets, all I have just stated is written. The Book of Revelations only hints at it, it is OT material.

juantoo3 · 05-25-2006, 09:16 AM

Kindest Regards, Luna!

Quote:

Without free will we would be automotons, not free to love God or each other.

I think you've pointed towards a crucial piece of the puzzle. Love. How often we hear "G-d is Love." Love cannot be forced if it is to be genuine. Love must be willingly returned to be genuine.

juantoo3 · 05-25-2006, 09:19 AM

Kindest Regards, wil!

Quote:

Seems to me we are predestined to find our way back to G-d, how it all happens is free will.

We go this way and that, take the wrong path, find some vices, ignore some virtues, commit some sin, break some commandments, but eventually the house wins and we find our way back home.

(no matter how many lifetimes it takes)

Perhaps you are correct.

Perhaps I can speed the process by not taking this for granted?

juantoo3 · 05-25-2006, 09:29 AM

Kindest Regards, 9Harmony!

It's been quite a while, I trust you are well!

Quote:

God knows what our choices will be before we do.

Of course, this returns us to asking why G-d would create those such as satan, if He knew the choices they would make ahead of time.

I am thinking that we (collectively, the world's religions) have placed an inordinate focus on ourselves regarding this subject. G-d loves us, that much I feel I can grant. But just how far will He (let alone should He) intervene in our lives. Is not the goal and purpose for us to interject ourselves into His life?

I guess what I am trying to say, aren't we a little presumptuous believing we can sit passively by and demand G-d do for us, when the reality is that G-d is looking for us to do for Him? We must do for Him in order to show our love; to manifest, exercise and grow our love. In the process, love being what it is, we also grow to love everybody and everything that is of G-d.

Just a random thought.

juantoo3 · 05-25-2006, 09:35 AM

Kindest Regards, path!

Quote:

We're all chosen. And I do tend to think we all make it back to God somehow. This is God's stated will- that we all come to be in communion with Him. I don't see how our puny selves can really, in the end, thwart God's will for us. He's omnipotent- so His will will be done.

I think I agree for the most part. I guess if I may be allowed to butcher Orwell for a moment; "We are all chosen. Some are more chosen than others."

To which I would add the caveat: "Just ask 'em."

mee · 05-25-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Yes, but look at where they all are standing and worshipping--before the throne of God in Heaven. So how can you say they are on the Earth?

This is what Jehovah has said: "The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Isaiah 66;1

Jehovah is in his holy temple.
Jehovah—in the heavens is his throne.

His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men ...psalm 11;4 yes Jehovah and Jesus can examine us humans on the earth , it is as if we are before the throne, it makes no difference that we are on the earth , we can welcome our king Jesus , and Jehovah and Jesus are looking on.
(Psalm 33:13) From the heavens Jehovah has looked, He has seen all the sons of men.
(Hebrews 4:13) And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.
(Proverbs 15:3) The eyes of Jehovah are in every place, keeping watch upon the bad ones and the good ones
(Acts 7:49) ‘The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.

wil · 05-25-2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Perhaps I can speed the process by not taking this for granted?

to every thing there is a season....we all awaken at our own speed...and yes when we awaken....tis our choice to pursue the course...or change the channel...many prefer the recliner...gotta love free will.

9Harmony · 05-25-2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

That's pretty much my take on it, 9Harmony.

We're all chosen. And I do tend to think we all make it back to God somehow. This is God's stated will- that we all come to be in communion with Him. I don't see how our puny selves can really, in the end, thwart God's will for us. He's omnipotent- so His will will be done.

We can thwart this will temporarily in our lives and in broader ways on earth. But what we perceive to be so linear and neat and tidy- time marching along in one direction, with our choices and their consequences in similar progression- is clearly not so for God, whom we can't begin to understand, and isn't even founded on what we know to be the case in modern physics.

I think this debate is partially a result of our being stuck in incorrect understandings of time, space, cause-effect events, and how this might relate to an omnipotent, omniscient Being that exists outside all this (eternal and infinite- basically without placement in space-time). I've been reading some really interesting work by astrophysicists and it's dovetailing nicely with my long-held suspicions that much of our difficulties with interpreting the scriptures and the nature of the relationship between God and humanity, as well as Christ's gift of salvation, are a result of our mental limitations rather than real contradiction.

well said.

9Harmony · 05-25-2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, 9Harmony!

It's been quite a while, I trust you are well!

Of course, this returns us to asking why G-d would create those such as satan, if He knew the choices they would make ahead of time.

I am thinking that we (collectively, the world's religions) have placed an inordinate focus on ourselves regarding this subject. G-d loves us, that much I feel I can grant. But just how far will He (let alone should He) intervene in our lives. Is not the goal and purpose for us to interject ourselves into His life?

I guess what I am trying to say, aren't we a little presumptuous believing we can sit passively by and demand G-d do for us, when the reality is that G-d is looking for us to do for Him? We must do for Him in order to show our love; to manifest, exercise and grow our love. In the process, love being what it is, we also grow to love everybody and everything that is of G-d.

Just a random thought.

Hi Juantoo,

yes i am well, Thank you, I trust you are too.

ummm...well i'm not sure how much i can say here, i just realized i'm in the Christian section.

As a Baha'i, i view Satan as our lower nature, we all have the capacity to do evil, it depends on whether we turn towards God or away from Him.

and i agree, our words and deeds need to be in alignment. We need to act, words without action are hollow, meaningless.

And yes, Love! if we can learn to see in each face, the face of God, and love each other for the sake of God, this world would be alot nicer place. For we are all God's children, He loves us all unconditionally. that is what we should strive for. little by little, day by day.

Have a great day!

cavalier · 05-26-2006, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

BTW, if we go by the Good Book, the chosen are the Jews, not Christians.

Yes, the Jews were obviously God's chosen nation, but this does not mean that Gentiles cannot also be chosen. Looking at Romans 4:9-17, we see that the promise God made to Abraham was made because of Abraham's faith (faith which is a gift from God Epesians 2:8). We see also that if we have the same faith, circumcised or not, Jewish or not, we can share in the same promise and blessing.

9Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, "I have made you the father of many nations"--

cavalier · 05-26-2006, 07:19 PM

Many people are suggesting that it is in the nature of mankind to seek out God. This is pretty much what I believe in also, but it seems to me that this view runs contrary to the teaching of the Bible, see Romans 3:11 "'..there is no one who seeks God.'"

I also cannot get around John 6:44-45, No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me...It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me..."

Everyone who is called will come, no one who is not called will come.