Progressive Christianity

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

......I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."...What if we have a choice between these three? And what if they each represent Christ in a different aspect of salvation?...Your thoughts?

I like the contemplation...and have read it that way two statements...

I am the way the truth and the life- In this one Jesus is saying that He is AND G-d is (I am that I am, and the I and the father are one..) the way, the truth and the life.

In the second it says ...no man cometh unto the Father but by me (and from the previous statement we know that both 'the Father' and 'me' are equal to, the way, the truth and the life) So I agree...if we want to become one...we follow the way, the truth, and the life.

Another concept is that the but by me...means in his nature, as he has taught and done. walk the walk.

I also like the internet analogy...G-d is omniscient and omnipresent...a source of all knowledge...I see each of us as a computer, currently material things with some limited skills, but when we go thru a modem (Jesus) we can connect to the internet (all knowledge) and each other...and realize our nearness, our oneness, our connection.

Of course there are other modems...cable access, satelite, wireless, and more and who knows which access to the all knowing will come up next?

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by flowperson

wil:

Thank you so much for your priceless thoughts.

Ruby:

Take care of your self and return soon. You are always able to make us think positively.

Flow....

Thank you, Flow. I'm glad you feel that way.

originally posted by Dondi:

I've been thinking about the words of Jesus in John 14:6:

"...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

What if we have a choice between these three? And what if they each represent Christ in a different aspect of salvation?

Your thoughts?

My thoughts have always been that these three go together. I don't know if I can explain. I feel these three are basic to the condition of the human spirit.

"No one comes to the father but through me."

"The father"=life eternal, new life, surrendered to being who/what we were born to be no matter how unpopular or what the price. Incidentally, I think other terms mean the same, such as kingdom of God/heaven. Can't think of any others right now.

who/what we were born to be=not vocation or career or profession. It means our true personality. It means our true personality in the most positive way this personality can be expressed.

I don't know how to get into this without referring to Myers-Briggs personality theory hereafter referred to as "MB" or "MB theory."

MB theory gave me language for what I had observed all my life--that there are categories of personalities. Some people are "soft" but not necessarily with a value judgment attached to "soft." Others were "hard" but not necessarily with a value judgment attached to the term. It was a way of thinking or talking or viewing the world. It wasn't bad and it wasn't good. There could be good and bad people in both the "hard" and "soft" types.

MB gave me terms for this. The "soft" people are MB Feelers (F; these letters have official meaning for later) who see the world and all that is in it in terms of how it feels to them. The "hard" people are MB Thinkers (T) who see the world and all that is in it in terms of objective descriptions such as number and name of items.

F people are naturally best suited for work that nourishes humans in some way, while T people are naturally more drawn to work that keeps the world and its systems and machines and societies working properly. That is very overly simplistic but it may give the idea for those of you who are not familiar with the theory.

We run into serious trouble when an F is expected to measure up to T standards. More men are T and more women are F. But only about two thirds of each. The other third of men and women are the other type than 66% of their gender. That means we get women who are hard-nosed thinkers and men who are soft and nurturing.

It seems to me that a female T or a male F can be true to their natural in-born way of being and also be true to their gender. I believe that first and foremost a person must have permission of self, parents, society, etc. to be true to their real inner self no matter how that fits the gender stereotype. After that need is met, ideally it is simultaneously, the person also learns how to fit the gender role for which they were born. I believe there are both T and F ways to be female and T and F ways to be male.

Now to take that one step further, if a male F strives to think and feel like his T father, he is not being true to himself. In order for him to lead a full and happy life he will sometime along the way have to acknowledge his F-ness and embrace it and be it. He will then, and only then, be able to really be himself. I believe the same applies for T women and all other types.

I observe that the person who is most fully his or her real self also has the highest levels of self-esteem and has the most healthy ways of relating to self and others and conducting life in general. Such a person naturally believes in others, helps where possible, maintains healthy boundaries between self and others, is honest, keeps the Golden Rule, etc.

I believe that what Jesus describes in the Sermon on the Mount, esp. in the "blessed are" is what happens when people stop trying to please others and just are what they were born to be. They become meek and lowly, they give up personal comfort when needed, etc. In other words, they live the moral life by nature.

I believe this can be applied to all of Jesus' teachings and also to the rest of the New Testament. So much of our Christian traditions, such as hell (in terms of a literal lake of fire) and the manger of the nativity scene, come not from the Bible but from the folk culture of Medieval Europe.

I have problems with the concept of Christ but I will try to apply it as I have seen others do. I think when Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and nobody comes to the Father but by me," he is explaining the literal meaning of being the Christ. He personifies how to be fully oneself and how to live such a life in meekness, in submission to life situations without compromise through prosperity and adversity, and not to flinch when the ultimate sacrifice is required.

I am not convinced that the New Testament gives us a clear picture of the life situation. But it gives us a clear picture of a person who was seen as being the perfect man in life and in death as he understood it.

Based on my personal life experience I could say the resurrection typifies that one must surrender all, be resigned to come what may. After one has "passed through the fire," so to speak, that person will be transformed in ways not imaginable before.

In my personal life I had to literally surrender my life-long identity to become what I had always viewed as an evil person. By allowing himself to be crucified, Jesus also took on the identity of an evil person. Only the lowest of criminals were ever crucified.

Like Dondi said, the religion we are raised with seems like the one and only right religion. I was taught by daily example and conversation that anyone who leaves this specific church did so for selfish and evil reasons. I had to choose between being viewed as such a selfish and evil person, or living the rest of my life in absolute agony.

It did not appear so black and white and clear at the time. But I did eventually choose to go through the "death" part or crucifixion. I have not once regretted it. I feel like I have been transformed into a totally different person. Going back even one tiny step feels like sophocation. So I trust that I am where God wants me to be. I think that is total surrender. If I had my way, I would have been very happy and content inside the community where I was born. There is nothing I would desire more on the level of carnal selfishness.

I feel this is all muddled up so feel free to ask questions for clarification. There may be topics that I feel are too personal but feel free to ask so long as it is okay if I say I don't want to go there. I just think that being who we were created to be is "the truth, the way, and the life," and that it is the only way to "the father." We cannot be happy or enter the kingdom of heaven any other way.

Ruby

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

...I believe Jesus showed us the way by becoming the Christ, and walked the walk to allow us to walk ours....and showed us that we can find our own saviour within, and believe we do not have to ever have read the bible, seen the bible, heard of the bible or Jesus to do this. I think he showed us that we have to save ourcellves...

We can't even contain our anger when someone cuts us off on the highway, or when someone we "love" does something we consider wrong, let alone those we do not love...we are no where near self self salvation. If we have only ourselves to save us, I fear for the future of humanity...

I am curious, where is the "progress" you opine to? Seriously, where is this great human synthesis, into a god like wave of beings? I won't say "pipe dream", nor will I say "reality". No "kid" ever developed in a healthy manner without parental guidance. What makes us think we can do any better without Godly guidance?

We are "kids" in the big picture...and we have no idea what we are doing, or what the future holds. Time has passed, but it appears nothing has changed.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We can't even contain our anger when someone cuts us off on the highway, or when someone we "love" does something we consider wrong, let alone those we do not love...we are no where near self self salvation. If we have only ourselves to save us, I fear for the future of humanity...

I am curious, where is the "progress" you opine to? Seriously, where is this great human synthesis, into a god like wave of beings? I won't say "pipe dream", nor will I say "reality". No "kid" ever developed in a healthy manner without parental guidance. What makes us think we can do any better without Godly guidance?

We are "kids" in the big picture...and we have no idea what we are doing, or what the future holds. Time has passed, but it appears nothing has changed.

Namaste Q, Who can't contain their anger? Those that are not progressive? Sure we bounce out as we attempt to stay on the path, but noticing our slip is the first step towards growth.

What you described is one of the number one steps to working on this issue, realizing that no one, no one cuts YOU off on the highway. Now I realize that is a generalization, but unless one has created a ton of enemies in their lifetime, enemies that know your driving patterns and your car, and then go out maliciously to CUT YOU OFF. It doesn't happen. Oh I guess there is another instance, where one is an agressive driver and has pissed off another agressive driver and then they get into a tit for tat and are actually cutting each other off....but they are obviously not on the path, I suppose that would be our nonprogressive types.

But this example is exactly what is discussed amongst folks that are attempting to rise themselves up in this world, attempting to be in this world but not of it. It is our perception that someone cuts us off. From our perspective a car just moved from our left or right and moved ahead of us...and that little move allows our blood to boil, our pressure to rise, our face to turn red and shout epithats? Give me a break. That person didn't cut YOU off, he/she has no idea you exist. They are trying to get to an exit they are about to miss, they are trying to get to pick up their kids before daycare starts charging them a five dollars a minute picking them up late, umpteen valid reasons they are rushing. And how exactly did it affect you, are you 24 feet further back? didja have to take your foot off the gas for a minute? Maybe you even had to swerve? Maybe an accident was caused...

But there is absolutely no way you were in that situation....you've never cut off others, never dived across a lane to not miss an exit. The reality is we've all been in the other shoes...maybe not in the highway, maybe verbally, maybe in business, maybe at home....we unintentionally cut someone off, and when it happens to us we make a major play of it.

Where is forgiveness come into play if you can't drive down the highway?

I could go on and on, as this example is the perfect first step to realizing your oneness with the world....the highway of life.

You know what I miss on this path of personal responsibility the most....when we come to realize we are both the created and the creator...that my reality is my creation and that everything that happens to me I have manifest....what I miss the most is blame, sure would be nice to just blame others again sometime....what an easy way out.

peace and blessings,

Q and I Bri, we've talked about this before and it is often rejected, but this is a perfect example yet again for a need for a liberal/progressive christianity walled garden. We don't need the mods of the literal interpretations jumping into every thread every where we go and condemning thought and stalling discussion. We are not alternative, we are already becoming mainstream, many churches, many denominations are moving in progressive directions...hell is getting smaller as we speak.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I am curious, where is the "progress" you opine to? Seriously, where is this great human synthesis, into a god like wave of beings?

It's all around us. Even when we don't see it.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

We are "kids" in the big picture...and we have no idea what we are doing, or what the future holds. Time has passed, but it appears nothing has changed.

What change are you looking for? If God created the Earth and everything upon it (including us), who are we to say that God's creation should be changed? Who are we to know the measure by which it should change? And who are we to change it?

Originally Posted by Friedrich Nietzsche

Man is not the effect of some special purpose, of a will, an end; nor is he the object of an attempt to attain an "ideal of humanity" or an "ideal of happiness" or an "ideal of morality"—it is absurd to wish to devolve one's essence on some end or other. We have invented the concept of "end": in reality there is no end ...One is necessary, one is a piece of fatefulness, one belongs to the whole, one is in the whole; there is nothing which could judge, measure, compare, or sentence our being, for that would mean judging, measuring, comparing, or sentencing the whole.

What we can change is who we think we are. And that makes all the difference.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by wil

Q and I Bri, we've talked about this before and it is often rejected, but this is a perfect example yet again for a need for a liberal/progressive christianity walled garden. We don't need the mods of the literal interpretations jumping into every thread every where we go and condemning thought and stalling discussion. We are not alternative, we are already becoming mainstream, many churches, many denominations are moving in progressive directions...hell is getting smaller as we speak.

I thought that was the reason this thread is in the Belief and Spirituality forum. That is what I said in the beginning of this thread. I have been adamant in the past to preserve the Christianity forum to the mainstream/orthodox views. But when discussions of this nature are introduced, there ought to be a place where we can amicably discuss the matter without feeling like we are stepping on anyone's spiritual or theological toes. Progressive Christianity is most definitely not mainstream. However, I think that it is instructive in understanding more broader views of the Christian faith, alternative or not.

This IS the place for Progressive Christianity. But it certainly hasn't become mainstream...at least not yet.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Dondi:

IMHO, Jesus came to show us not what was, but what would be, and He did so through His life, works, and legacy. Since the realm He came from, the realm of the "word" which is timeless and eternal, that would not be a problem for such a visionary. I believe that we are observing what He predicted would come to pass, a changing of the world and the people in it.

He was a herald of a novel type of human existence, and today there are many others around such "newbies" who are jealous of their nature and abilities. The jealous ones are full of envy and wish to turn the clock back to the way things were before the changes began, but that cannot be done. It's all happening around us right now, IMO. That's what all the deception, lies, and conflict are about I believe.

flow....

Flow, can you elaborate? Sorry, we're always asking for elaboration. I sense you are talking about things of which I have no real understanding and I would like better insight if you don't mind explaining more specifically what changes you are talking about.

Ruby

[wil]

Namaste Dondi and Q,

How about the rubber meeting the road? Three posters all within an hour and half of each other, I assume all our churches are in the same realm.

How about leaving the virtual and allowing the comparative to come to reality?

Seeing the similarities and the differences? Taking three Sundays to visit each others places of worship, taking three Sundays to meet each other outside of cyberspace....I know I'm putting the burden on both of you, as I am central to both, and both of you will have to travel the furthest to get to each others churches...but what say you...this'll be 'progressive'!

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Flow, can you elaborate? Sorry, we're always asking for elaboration. I sense you are talking about things of which I have no real understanding and I would like better insight if you don't mind explaining more specifically what changes you are talking about.

Ruby

Hi Ruby, liked your last post !

It's hard being specific, but it is all being driven, as I've said elsewhere, by the intimate integration of novel scientifically designed technologies that, by their very nature, will cause us to evolve and change into beings that perhaps we might not be able to recognize as human in, say, another four hundred years or so. This is happening to our bodies and our brains at the genomic and molecular levels, and it's no accident. But I still believe that G-d's in charge, depending upon one's version of belief in Him/Her.

flow....

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Dondi and Q,

How about the rubber meeting the road? Three posters all within an hour and half of each other, I assume all our churches are in the same realm.

How about leaving the virtual and allowing the comparative to come to reality?

Seeing the similarities and the differences? Taking three Sundays to visit each others places of worship, taking three Sundays to meet each other outside of cyberspace....I know I'm putting the burden on both of you, as I am central to both, and both of you will have to travel the furthest to get to each others churches...but what say you...this'll be 'progressive'!

Hey guys. When you get burned out on all of that, c'mon out to the high desert and we can Party Down..WoooHooo !

flow....

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by wil

Q and I Bri, we've talked about this before and it is often rejected, but this is a perfect example yet again for a need for a liberal/progressive christianity walled garden. We don't need the mods of the literal interpretations jumping into every thread every where we go and condemning thought and stalling discussion. We are not alternative, we are already becoming mainstream, many churches, many denominations are moving in progressive directions...hell is getting smaller as we speak.

I agree it would be welcome - I'm simply trying to see how how to split up faith boards into subgroups without making the walls too thick and deep.

I'm currently examning the board structure, to see what changes may work best overall.

[InLove]

Hi, Peace to All Here---

What an interesting thread! I am glad you started it, RubySera_Martin. I don’t believe we have formerly met, so let me just say that I am happy to do that now. I apologize ahead of time for the long post. I usually try to avoid being so verbose, but I could not decide where to edit, so I am just leaving it as it is. And there may have been several posts made since I started this one, so I hope it won’t look too out of place.

There are so many statements on this thread that I would like to wrap quotes around that I have had a difficult time choosing, so I don’t think I will, at least not right now. But I would like to thank Dondi for expressing so honestly and clearly what I believe to be on the minds of many Christians similar to myself these days. And not just these days, but also probably throughout the history of the faith. To hopefully paraphrase part of what you posted early on, Dondi, (and this is in extremely short terms), “If God is Love, how can He just throw away so many lives? But if expressed belief in Jesus as Christ is the only way to God, then this seems to be what He says He will do. Surely we must be misinterpreting His message???”

Well, it does appear that, according to what has been included in the Christian Bible, Old and New Testaments, both Protestant and Catholic, believers in the God of Isreal have often missed The Truth. Not only this, but if Jesus is the Christ—The Way, The Truth, and The Life—many of us will continue to misunderstand, misinterpret, and even overlook the obvious until the very end of this Biblical age. (Please understand that I am not preaching here, just pointing out that this is the way it reads. I am aware of and desire to respect the board on which I am posting. I am grateful that we can come here as Christians of various thought processes to calmly discuss something that is and should be on our hearts and minds. I am also saddened that the consensus here seems to be that we cannot do it on the Christian board. I feel like we could, but I might be wrong.)

Anyway, back to the idea that we have and do sometimes misunderstand much of what is written in the Bible—it may appear that I am rambling for a while, but please bear with me, as I am trying to address the issue at hand.

Many people believe (and I am one) that the written Word cannot be understood properly unless taken as a whole, with all of it’s perceived contradictions and possible tamperings. And this not without a leap of faith. It is my belief that all creation is at least subconsciously “aware” of the existence of the Great Spirit often referred to as “God”. The Christian Bible says that God is Love, and that humans used to walk with Him without fear until we allowed ourselves be deceived—we took the wrong risk, the one that required less faith, the bet that appeared to be the surefire solution to needs and wants we didn’t even have until someone came along and manipulated us into believing otherwise. The Father knew, like any parent invested in the lives of his or her children, that this would happen. He knew that we could not be complete without being faced with this sort of choice. And I believe that He knew what our choice would be (Him being God and all. ) Whether one takes the story of The Fall literally or symbolically or both, the central message is clear. Again, this is my belief, but I am certain I am not alone in it. Anyway, my point is that availing ourselves to any kind of love, particularly this almighty, all-powerful, all-seeing one, is scary and risky, and it requires faith to embrace it and take it into our very being. Without at least a perceived risk, there can be no act of faith. And without an act of faith, we cannot begin to properly comprehend the written Word of God. But when it is written on our hearts, the Spirit opens our eyes, and we understand that there is something very important about things like the Roman altar to “The Unknown God” and the faith of the Roman Centurian. We start to see that God does not desire to exclude anyone, and the Word on my heart is that He will achieve His desire. Men and women may tell us otherwise, but I am going to have to believe what the God of Love writes on my heart as I study His Word.

Personally, I see Christianity as being "progressive" from its very beginning--a thought that I believe has been expressed here on this thread in several different ways by several different people without using those exact words. I might even go so far as to submit that the great "I Am" is, and always has been, progressive. Forever the same, unchanging in essence, yet omnidirectional. If I am to believe "Him", then of course He Is.

I think that the reason the term "progressive" puts many people off is that it can imply a threat. I say it all the time: Human language is limited and imperfect. But Jesus often employed parables to address issues that were difficult for people, even those closest to Him, to understand. While I do not have the same command over metaphor as He, I will attempt to dip into that well by talking, as He often did, about breadmaking.

When I make bread, the dough goes through so many changes! I mix it, I knead it, I stretch it, I raise it, I punch it down and and allow it to rise again. It is messy and it takes lots of my time. I get flour all over the kitchen and myself, and I have to clean things up more than once. But when I bake it, my home and my soul is filled with the most heavenly aroma I believe can be created in one’s oven. And when it is finished, what do I do with that beautiful bread? I consume it—it becomes part of me. Okay, yes, in the physical sense, my body will use what it needs for nutrition and expel the rest, but my Spirit will rejoice in what I have created, and that remains a part of me, and I do not forget it—it is more than the memory of one loaf of bread. Much, much more.

Think of Martin Luther: He was considered heretical to most of the Christian world at the time he posted his “Ninety-Five Theses on the Castle Church door in Whittenburg and kicked off the Protestant Reformation. And to this day, I think it is safe to say that he is not one of Catholicism’s favorite sons. Yet here we are, Catholics and Protestants and otherwise, discussing peacefully the idea of “Progressive Christianity”. It is dough that has been stretched and kneaded many times.

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Wow InLove, beautiful post.

luna

[wil]

pardon me, just skipping and frolicking...:rol leyes:

[flowperson]

InLove...Simply marvelous.

Yes...I somehow knew that you baked bread. I use a sour starter that my first wife's mother gave me that is now about 160 years old. I renew it every time I bake.

I've been doing the same thing for about forty years. And now my son does the same. People have asked me," Why don't you do it with a machine...less mess...less risk...less...."

I answer, " Because bread is a living thing that desires to be made and shaped with human hands, not machine parts...."

And when it is baked, when it has made my place smell so good in the morning, when I eat a warm heel with spread and brown sugar on it, then I know that once again that I have done a right thing. I have created an original spiritual experience...again... with G-d's help.

Peace...flow....