Promoting a gay priest to bishop - Page 2

dasant · 01-17-2004, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJM

Yes Bisexuals would go to hell if homosexuality is a sin but if it isn't then no. The way I see it if God knows what we will choose no we have no chose but to choose that which means we aren’t actually choosing anything. That is why I believe he doesn't know what we will choose because if he does we aren’t actually choosing. So Because I am a believer in Christianity I can’t believe that God knows what we will choose. By the way is it my imagination or did you change your avatar if so nice chioce don't know what it is but it looks good.

__________________________________________________ __
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

I still don't see why bisexual men and women would go to hell, for they are straight as well.

Since my thoughts are that god does see the future because he is almighty and all-power fall; I believe that he has created sin. Meaning god himself sins. Which leads me to have doubt in this so called almighty being.

We are created out of his own image, which we both agree on. If homosexuals exist, and are coming out of his own image, that means god has an image of them. So why would they go to hell, if god knows they will exist and thus creates them…

If he were almighty and powerful, why wouldn’t he stop all sin…and stop these people from existing…because he can control his own image right?

And my avatar is Marilyn Manson...

JJM · 01-17-2004, 03:52 PM

I agree with you if God knows what we will do then we don't freely choose to do it. Sin is Choosing freely to do what we know is wrong. So no one sins thus no one can go to hell. So as long as you believe that God knows what we will do you should believe that no one will go to hell. And as long as you believe that homosexuality is genetic then God could very well be attracted to men. And you are right. What we differ on is weather Homosexuality is genetic and if God can see the future if I agreed with you on those things we'd have the exact same point of view about homosexuality being a sin. However the thought that we have no free will means and Gad creates evil is something that I as a Christian cannot believe so that Is the way I think the way I do. I don't know if I'm being naive or what but that is my point of view. I do think that God is all powerful but that doesn't mean he is all knowing. I believe that God knows everything about the present and past and the way the entire universe works but I do not believe he knows what has not happened yet. He very well could but if he does then No one can be held accountable for their actions.

As for being made from God's image. I don't believe that homosexuality is genetic thus it has nothing to do with God's image but even if it does (and I think this will help with the bisexual thing too) It is not being attracted to the same sex which is a sin it is acting on it by having sexual intercourse with that person that is a sin in the eyes of many Christians. That is why Bisexuality is a sin. I don't know if you already knew that or not but from your last post it accrued to me that you didn't. Maybe I'm wrong and you did know.

And as for your last question if you go with my theory that God doesn't know what we will do then that means were have free will. In my opinion free will is what causes sin. But taking it away from someone would be a sin. So God allows us to sin to keep himself from sinning. So while God can control our actions thus know what we will do. He doesn’t because he’d be sinning himself. I don't know how much sense that makes but it is what I think.

__________________________________________________ __
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates

Quahom1 · 01-17-2004, 05:22 PM

Maybe free will has something to do with changing the future possibilities. If so, God has a whole lot of outcomes to sort through. Perhaps most are negative, so when we choose a positive one, He is pleased.

If I put God in a box, do I not put myself in a coffin? Think about it.

JJM · 01-17-2004, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Maybe free will has something to do with changing the future possibilities. If so, God has a whole lot of outcomes to sort through. Perhaps most are negative, so when we choose a positive one, He is pleased.

If I put God in a box, do I not put myself in a coffin? Think about it.

THat makes perfect sense to me. We choose to do things but we are not in conrol of the outcome of those choices. Is that what you are saying? If so does that still mean that God doesn't know what we will choose?

Excelsis Deo · 07-11-2004, 06:49 AM

What does it mean God made us in His image? God made Adam and Eve in His image. Perfect spotless......then the fall and you know the rest..........So you and I are a corrupted image of God thats the first problem. Mankind is born with a sin nature and this leads to all kinds of vice like homosexuality. Can a homosexual be saved? Yes, we are ALL on our way to eternal seperation from God not just the gays. The only thing that saves our hetero and homo butts is the death of Jesus for our sin. The issue is forgiveness. Of course to receive the gift of salvation one has to repent (turn voluntarily from sin to God). There is hope for everybody gay or straight.

To address the issue more directly i would say this is not an identity issue as it is a lust issue. I a man, lust after women on occasion. Is it wrong? Jesus says it is. And unless I am marrried to the woman I cant have sex with her or even THINK about having sex with her. Homosexuality is a manifestation of the sinful nature as mine is for lusting after women. Jesus' command is to flee those lusts and depend on God for strength to overcome them.

Quahom1 · 07-12-2004, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJM

THat makes perfect sense to me. We choose to do things but we are not in conrol of the outcome of those choices. Is that what you are saying? If so does that still mean that God doesn't know what we will choose?

The book of revelations strongly implies that God knows what will become of man "if" we continue in a certain behavioral pattern. But it also implies that God does not know what path man will take. It only warns us of the consequences of living a certain unacceptable way.

"God does not play dice with the universe" (Albert Einstein), but when it comes to Man and his "free will", I think life is in fact a craps shoot for God. And because He gave us free will for a reason, for that same reason I believe He refused to 'load the dice'.

God does not know what man will do, only what man can do.

Time is a funny thing. We always need more of it, can never get enough of it, and spend what little we have of it, foolishly.

I think in this respect that God is of similar mind:

Yesterday is a cancelled check, tomorrow is a promisary note, today however is cash in hand...so spend it wisely.

good day to all

v/r

Q

bruce · 07-12-2004, 12:46 PM

you must look at what the bible says concerning homosexuality.It is considered an unclean practice. Nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of God-Romans 1 :26 thru 32.There should not be an argument,Homosexuailty is wrong remember Sodom and Gomorah??

I, Brian · 07-12-2004, 01:45 PM

Why, what happened at Sodom and Gomorah that had anything to do with gay people falling in love with each other?

Abogado del Diablo · 07-12-2004, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce

you must look at what the bible says concerning homosexuality.It is considered an unclean practice. Nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of God-Romans 1 :26 thru 32.There should not be an argument,Homosexuailty is wrong remember Sodom and Gomorah??

What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean', but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean'.
-Matt 15:11

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
-Luke 6:37-39

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
- Rom 2:1-4

Quahom1 · 07-12-2004, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce

you must look at what the bible says concerning homosexuality.It is considered an unclean practice. Nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of God-Romans 1 :26 thru 32.There should not be an argument,Homosexuailty is wrong remember Sodom and Gomorah??

My personal beliefs aside, I shall play the devil's advocate here:

By your expressed reasoning, the homosexual can not enter Heaven, because the act of homosexual behavior marks him/her as unclean, because it is a sin. If this is correct then none of us will ever enter Heaven because we all behave in manners that mark us as unclean; we all sin.

The problem with using scripture as a means of proving a point is that one can not pick and choose individual passeges, else the foundation for the arguement is incomplete and unsteady. The entire context of scripture must be brought to bear.

There is no sin greater than any other to God save one:

Blasphemy (taking credit for what the Holy Spirit has done). That is the only unforgivable sin according to scripture.

This implies that yes, even the homosexual has the chance to enter Heaven, if he or she is repentent.

So do the rest of us, if we are repentent.

As to your reference to "Sodom and Gomorrah", one must also take into account what God said to Lot prior to those two cities' destruction. If even one man would be found to be righteous living in the city(s), God would spare the city for the sake of the one righteous man.

At closer inspection this reminds me of a metephor regarding mankind and the world. For the sake of one righteous man (Jesus), God the father chose to spare mankind and the world.

Take heart in the possibility that this homosexual priest/bishop may have just bought us a little more time. His posting has caused the church to split again, which waxes contrary to what scripture says about the church becoming universal (catholic in the literal sense of the definition), just prior to the end of days as we know them.

If you believe that this priest will never see Heaven based on scripture, then according to history, he will be in great company...(Constatine, Leo III, Martin Luther, Paul of Tarsus, John Wycliffe, George Washington, John Kennedy, Mother Theresa, all the apostles, you, me and everyone else on Earth).

God does not demand that we become "clean" before we turn to Him. God asks that we turn to Him so that He can make us "clean".

I understand your reasoning, friend. Do you understand mine?

v/r

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kiwimac · 07-12-2004, 09:22 PM

Homosexuality is no more of a limiting factor in entering the kingdom of heaven than is bein left-handed.

Kiwimac

Mus Zibii · 07-13-2004, 04:20 AM

Only the penitent will achieve enlightenment or the favour of God. You can be of clear conscience or guilty as sin, but you have to maintain perspective. The whore could easily lead the 'righteous' in this manner.

Isa 64:6-- But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

spiritman51 · 10-01-2004, 06:33 AM

As a Gay person I am not shocked at the venom shown by many Bible quoting Christians. I know first hand you can't reason with them. They close their hearts and minds to any dialogue and quote Leviticus. They quote The Epistle to the Romans and flat out tell you your damned. As a young man I came out as Gay to my very religious family and was subjected to a suprise exorcism and shunning. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Many Gay and Lesbians people have been ejected from their loving Christian families and Churches. In the past GLBT people would sink away and abandon their faith. But here we have a saint, a man of faith who doesn't hide. Not only is Bishop Gene Robinson a role model for Gay Christians but a shining example for all people of faith. Another Episcopal Bishop ( not gay) I admire is Bishop Spong, Bishop of Newark, New Jersey. He is the author of many timely books concerning Gay Christians and women in the church. One which I remember is , " Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism". The letter kills..but the Spirit gives life.

KnightoftheRose · 10-01-2004, 10:15 AM

This is a really "iffy" situation...

On the one hand, I can see why gays feel so threatened, and I can see how they would argue their homosexuality doesn't affect God's view of them...

But on the other hand, should the church really be endorsing ANY sin? Even just minor sins? I mean, c'mon, when the churches begin saying, "Oh, that's just a minor sin - we're all fallible, so God will forgive us, hee hee", that's only a step away from saying, "Ah, just ignore the Bible - God will let you into heaven anyways."

I dunno...maybe homosexuality isn't all that sinful, maybe gay people can get into the kingdom of heaven - but that doesn't mean the church should actively support it, nor should a Bishop be flaunting such a sin (regardless of whether its a "major" or "minor" sin) to the public. It's just disrespectful.

Quahom1 · 10-02-2004, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiritman51

As a Gay person I am not shocked at the venom shown by many Bible quoting Christians. I know first hand you can't reason with them. They close their hearts and minds to any dialogue and quote Leviticus. They quote The Epistle to the Romans and flat out tell you your damned. As a young man I came out as Gay to my very religious family and was subjected to a suprise exorcism and shunning. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Many Gay and Lesbians people have been ejected from their loving Christian families and Churches. In the past GLBT people would sink away and abandon their faith. But here we have a saint, a man of faith who doesn't hide. Not only is Bishop Gene Robinson a role model for Gay Christians but a shining example for all people of faith. Another Episcopal Bishop ( not gay) I admire is Bishop Spong, Bishop of Newark, New Jersey. He is the author of many timely books concerning Gay Christians and women in the church. One which I remember is , " Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism". The letter kills..but the Spirit gives life.

I'm afraid that the Bible quoting Christians are not the only group who can not be reasoned with at times. Nor are they the only ones who doggedly attempt to force society to comply with their wishes and way of thinking.

Tolerance is one thing, and in great abundance in the United States. However the tolerance is a practiced behavior that has to be consciously reinforced during particular times. It can only go so far when the majority of people have a natural revulsion to somthing and are forced into close proximity for long periods of time.

Acceptance is differnent altogether. It is an internally driven choice; it can not be forced upon anyone by external means. Continued attempts to force acceptantance tends to only increase resentment.

Finally, if no positive benefit can be seen towards a certain behavior (such as strengthening, nuturing and reinforcing society's cohesiveness), then society as a rule defends itself by rejecting the behavior. Those that insist on continuing the behavior in such a fashion that it appears to disrupt society's cohesiveness are in fact cast out, or shunned.

Pardon the cliche, but the needs of the many out-weigh the needs or wants of the few...

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