Proofs for existence of God

Nitai · 06-17-2005, 10:58 AM

Hare Krishna

Welcome everybody,

I don't know if you had already this discussion about proofs for existence of God but I was thinking to start it because it is the basis of strengthening faith in God Knowing good arguments one can easily counteract the atheistic arguments against existence of God.

I would like to request everybody to post at once only one argument. You can also present an argument of the atheists and how you would defeat that.
So, I am anxiously awaiting your posts.

Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge.

I, Brian · 06-17-2005, 12:13 PM

There are no proofs for the existence of God - merely illustrative metaphors.

So far as I understand it, to "prove" is to quantify and measure - but I do not believe that God can be subject to either.

2c.

InLove · 06-17-2005, 04:16 PM

Hello, and Peace to All Here--

What Brian said. I am compelled to add this: The proof of the existence of God lies in the heart, mind, and Spirit of the individual. We look around, we look inside, and ultimately decide what we believe.

InPeace,
InLove

Postmaster · 06-17-2005, 07:22 PM

If God is everything then he can be measured in a materialistic way.

The fact that we are here taking about the existence of such a being is enough proof for me.

Nature has had over 50'000 years to perfect the human being, why would we still be talking about something that does not exist for thousands of years?

Also as hard core proof, I and my family have been witness to a weeping icon of the virgin Mary in our home. Crying oil on 3 occasions that was all over the window seal that we cleaned. You still need faith to believe me about that

StarshipEnterprise · 06-18-2005, 03:00 AM

Quote:

originally posted by Nitai
I would like to request everybody to post at once only one argument. You can also present an argument of the atheists and how you would defeat that.
So, I am anxiously awaiting your posts.

You have to remember that not all of us here beleive in God. I agree with Brian that the existence of God cannot be prooven or disproven. At this point no human being can comprehend what is the cause for the existense of the universe. We would like to think it is a being like ourselves, so we call it God. Whatever it is, no one really knows

just thinking.

nomanshake · 06-18-2005, 03:54 AM

Well you really can't see God, coz that's one law of God's power.
If he shows himself up or a miracle, then God might loose his special attribute..
However the main basis to know God's existence is to feel him, one way to do it ofcourse is to follow your religion and nature, cause I really do feel some bless inside my heart when I go for early morning prayers, its this amazing feeling, that makes me happy all arouind, and to me it's the God's bless through nature, this feeling makes me love nature.
Another reason to belive in his existence is that.. ok if science is the reason behind the universe, then well who created these scientific matters, that includes atoms, stars, suns, water, etc etc..

Nitai · 06-18-2005, 12:41 PM

Hare Krishna

Some people are fanatic atheists
Some people are sceptics or agnostics
Some people are religious sentimentalists
Some people are religious fanatics

Whatever somebody is I think everybody should consider in his life the logic, reasoning and religious experiences that proof God's existence.
Of course, for some the first two is not enough even it might be very strong reasoning but let's continue.
It's interesting to see your ideas. When I'll have some more time (soon I hope) I'll give some arguments. Thank you for interesting thoughts.

I, Brian · 06-18-2005, 01:06 PM

No problem - it's an interesting thread, and it's good to see you taking time to share a more personal input, Nitai.

PluckyAli · 06-18-2005, 03:41 PM

I have debated with atheist several times and infact it's my partime job.So who is atheist here?.

I shall add one more thing.There are two kinds of proofs.A scientifc proof and general proof.God can be prove in general meaning of proof.A God can't be proven or disproven in scientific terms.To prove things in science you need to test them,there is not a way you can test God exist or not.We can only give evidence or make an ID theory,but there is always an uncertainty,just like there is always an uncertainty about evolution or big bang theory.

Nitai · 06-18-2005, 08:34 PM

# the consciousness is the symptom of the soul
# which is the symptom of life, awareness, feelings and desires
# because of consciousness there is life and movement
# our consciousness pervades only the body thus
# the body is alive because of our consciousness
# God is the greatest of all living entities thus
# He is conscious of the whole universe this is because
# He pervades the whole universe with His Super-consciousness

# PROOF 1: because of our consciousness we are aware of our body
# similarly with His Super-consciousness God is aware of everything in the universe
# Thus He is directing the wanderings of all living entities
# since He is all-pervading He is also is within the heart of everybody
# He knows all the past and present activities of all living entities
# thus He gives to the living entities - in each of their reincarnation - that what they deserve according to their activities
# PROOF OF REINCARNATION
* scientific proof - read the research of Ian Stevenson
http://www.near-death.com/experience...rnation01.html
* refutation of critics of Ian Stevenson
http://www.scientificexploration.org...4/edwards.html
* Scriptural proof - read reincarnation and Christianity
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reinc...velation-1.htm
# POINT TO UNDERSTAND: according to ones desires, attachments and activities God directs the materially conditioned soul to next life in another body. He gives the soul all the facilities to continue with the activities he stopped in his previous life
# Without the direction of the all-knowing supreme-conscious being the soul could not find a suitable place for continuing the activities he desires to preform
# therefor God exist
# NOTE: of course, we should also consider what one deserves according to the karma (but this is other topic)

# He is the purifier of impurities
# it is because of the all-knowing God that one is awarded by enlightenment or love of God
# many attained His vision as light like Moses, saint Franciscan, Sankaracarya etc,
# many realised His personal feature or form by meditation
# thus God appeared before them
# e.g the true yogis: Patanjali, Dhruva, Yamunacarya etc.
# In one of the Hadiths it is said that Mohamed sow God face to face and God put His hand on Mohamed.
# My point is: God stops ones reincarnation when one attains love of God
# thus He can control the wanderings of living entities or gives them liberation when they deserve
# it is not in our power to attain purity or attain perfection without God
# only by the touch of the Purest one can become pure
# only because of the liberated pure person - God - one can attain liberation
# just like the King only or his officials can release a man from imprisonment
# only after coming in touch with God (after long practice) many became transformed manifesting symptoms of love of God

THE MAINTANER
# PROOF 2: because of the presence of consciousness in the body our body is maintained
# God's super-consciousness pervades the whole universe
# He is there, even within all the atoms
# thus He maintains the whole universe - the proper rotation of planets and the atomic particles
# just as our body would immediately collapse without presence of consciousness or the soul
# similarly the whole universe would immediately collapse if God would leave this universe

THE SOURCE OF KNOWLEGE, REMEMBERANCE AND FORGETFULNESS
INSTINCT
# God gives knowledge to animals -
# that knowledge by the science is called - instinct
# E.g. the birds know where to fly (south, east)
# there is one species of birds; the parents fly one week before the offspring
# still, the offspring will reach the same destination like their parents

KNOWLEDGE
# Mozart said 'the melodies just come', he didn't know from where, he just wrote them down
# many times scientific discoveries were a surprise
# not while working in the laboratory and endeavoring by hard thinking and concentration on the subject
# it came just suddenly from somewhere
# that 'suddenly' and 'somewhere' means there is a source of knowledge
# that source of knowledge must be conscious to be able to give (or respond by giving)
# that source of knowledge must be superior to man who knows more than man
# that source of knowledge have to be aware of man's desire
# God knows the desire of everyone since He is in the heart of everyone
# Therefore, it is the all-knowing Supreme Lord who is the ultimate source of knowledge for man

REMEBERANCE AND FORGETFULNESS
# sometimes even the most sober man with a best memory cannot remember the needful
# it is not in our control to brows through our complex memory disk
# we don't even think about the process of remembering when desiring to remember something
# essentially our endeavor to remember is conscious and ultimately we get the information
# dull matter cannot respond to our desire to remember something
# therefore, the cause of getting the information can be only a conscious person
# that conscious person is God, He gives as remembrance through the complex activity of the brain's working
# similarly it is same with forgetfulness

# It would be interesting to me that those of you who are atheists try to think about some proof for God's existence. Maybe just for fun you could think and write down something?

PluckyAli · 06-18-2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

In one of the Hadiths it is said that Mohamed sow God face to face and God put His hand on Mohamed.

Nah

Quote:

My point is: God stops ones reincarnation when one attains love of God

Reincarnation is for kids.

Quote:

He is there, even within all the atom.

I used to believe like this.No more

By the way are you telling us about God existence or his nature?

Nitai · 06-19-2005, 05:16 AM

Quote:
In one of the Hadiths it is said that Mohamed sow God face to face and God put His hand on Mohamed.
Nah

# Well, this is what I heard from one Sufi. From some other Muslims I also heard that Allah did not put His hand on Mohamed but all of them agreed that they sow each other face to face in the seventh heaven.
# Therefore, according to the evidence of Mohamed God exist

Quote:
My point is: God stops ones reincarnation when one attains love of God

Reincarnation is for kids.
# There is no explanation in your argument so it is not a serious objection.

# But anyway, did you read the stuff on those links I gave? If not, go ahead and think about them seriously with open mind and no prejudice.

Quote:
He is there, even within all the atom.

I used to believe like this. No more

# Again, I will not take seriously your remark if you don't explain your reason.

By the way are you telling us about God existence or his nature?

# Try to read everything again, the whole reasoning and don't pick up only one sentence from the thread, otherwise the purpose is lost and you can ask or say anything quoting out of context.

PluckyAli · 06-19-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Well, this is what I heard from one Sufi. From some other Muslims I also heard that Allah did not put His hand on Mohamed but all of them agreed that they sow each other face to face in the seventh heaven.
Therefore, according to the evidence of Mohamed God exist

Yeah,but that arguemnt assumes that your pre-assume the other person believe in sufi,muslims or muhammad.

Quote:

God stops ones reincarnation when one attains love of God

This statment also assumes that ye believe in reincarnation and stopping or starting reincarnationl.Reincanration doesnot make sense since we have not seen any perons who can remember his past,so believing in something which is subjective is not very logical.

Quote:

But anyway, did you read the stuff on those links I gave? If not, go ahead and think about them seriously with open mind and no prejudice.

Yeah,just briefly.I can't read long posts,i don't like to.I am always open minded,but the above statement can be applied for you.

Quote:

He is there, even within all the atom.

This is the statement i would strongly disagree.first of all there is no evidence for it.Your trying to say god is within all atoms,meaning god is his creation,that doesnot makese sense.How can God be everywhere at the same time?.If god is everywhere means god is in the weirdest part of the universe for e.g toilets etc.Why would a god would like to live in a place like that?
For the above reasons,it doesnot make sense to believe everything is good.

Quote:

Again, I will not take seriously your remark if you don't explain your reason.

Yeah but how bout your reasons bout reincarnation,god is everything etc?.

Quote:

Try to read everything again, the whole reasoning and don't pick up only one sentence from the thread, otherwise the purpose is lost and you can ask or say anything quoting out of context.

If your writing in points then reading previous point's should not be a matter of grave.I don't quote oout of context as it is obvious.I quote your full point for e.g bout reincarnation.

queenofsheba · 06-20-2005, 10:34 AM

There were proofs like that by Aristotle, Thomas of Aquino etc., but they didn't make sense.
You can't proof that God exists, but you also can't proof that He doesn't.

PluckyAli · 06-20-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queenofsheba

There were proofs like that by Aristotle, Thomas of Aquino etc., but they didn't make sense.
You can't proof that God exists, but you also can't proof that He doesn't.

Proofs are meant to make sense,if proofs doesnot make sense they can't be called proofs.Prove is strictly only for maths.Scientific theories can't be proven or disproven.We are interested in evidence not proofs.