Prophecy concerning Maitreya and the loss of the Dharma with this teaching.

[inhumility]

Vajradhara
This is just a query, making a reference to your post # 32 on the thread Is Prophecy dead as under:
"The Baha'i Faith makes the assertion that prophecies of all of the worlds great religions have been fulfilled with the coming of the Bab (the Gate) and Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God)."

now... does this mean to indicate all prophecies of the world religions has been fulfilled or just some of them?

if it means all of them, can you explain how you reconcile theprophecy concerning Maitreya and the loss of the Dharma with this teaching.”

Could you, please, elaborate as to what is the prophecy concerning Maitreya and the loss of the Dharma with this teaching? And who made this prophecy?
Has it been fullfilled?
Thanks

[Vajradhara]

Namaste inhumility,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by inhumility

Could you, please, elaborate as to what is the prophecy concerning Maitreya

here is our discussion about this prophecy:

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...treya-872.html

here is a brief excerpt from that discussion:

"...As soon as he is born he will walk seven steps forward, and where he puts down his feet a jewel or a lotus will spring up. He will raise his eyes to the ten directions, and will speak these words: "This is my last birth. There will be no rebirth after this one. Never will I come back here, but, all pure, I shall win Nirvana!"

and the loss of the Dharma with this teaching?

the Dharma goes through phases in a particular world system. this current turning of the Wheel will last for some 10,000 years or so. we are, roughly, 2,570 odd years into this turning, so we've got some years left

And who made this prophecy?

Buddha Shakyamuni.

Has it been fullfilled?
Thanks

no, it has not and that is the impetus for my inquiries on the referenced thread.

metta,

~v

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Buddha Shakyamuni.
no, it has not and that is the impetus for my inquiries on the referenced thread.
metta,

Hi,
Thanks for the prompt response.
I am delighted to read this post of yours and all the posts on the previous thread started by you titled "The Prophecy of Maitreya". I was not aware of this previously. And when I checked with my resources I was further delighted to know that the prophecy had been fulfilled almost about 2000 years ago. I respect your views and your religion. The discussion (please note, not a debate) would be sort of lengthy but if you please bear with me I will share it with you and all the viewers/members of the forum, as you had started that thread for this purpose.
Thanks again

[Vajradhara]

Namaste inhumility,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by inhumility

Hi,
Thanks for the prompt response.
I am delighted to read this post of yours and all the posts on the previous thread started by you titled "The Prophecy of Maitreya".

thank you for the kind words

I was not aware of this previously.

there are many aspects of the Buddha Dharma that most non-Buddhists are not aware of, it is a large corpus of material, to be sure.

And when I checked with my resources I was further delighted to know that the prophecy had been fulfilled almost about 2000 years ago.

that is, of course, a non-Buddhist point of view. none of the conditions of which the prophecy speaks have come to pass yet that, however, does not prevent some beings from proclaiming themselves to be Buddha Maitreya

I respect your views and your religion. The discussion (please note, not a debate) would be sort of lengthy

we don't really have debates on this forum. debates are formal sorts of things with rules and procedures and winners and losers. we are, at Comparative Religion, engaged in the process of discussion and dialog which has no winners and losers and no set procedures.

i have no problem with a lengthy discussion provided that the discussion is, primarily, based on your own words and views. cutting and pasting large tracts of text is not a viable basis for discussion. naturally, somethings are more prone to this than others, so it is a judgement call.

but if you please bear with me I will share it with you and all the viewers/members of the forum, as you had started that thread for this purpose.
Thanks again

bear in mind where the thread is posted and the overall requirements therein. if you would like to present a non-Buddhist discussion advocating your religious founders fulfillment of a Buddhist prophecy, that would best be done on the appropriate forum.

metta,

~v

[taijasi]

Namaste taijasi,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by taijasi

Yes, a good example of a different point of view from that of many Buddhists is the esoteric teaching that Maitreya is currently the Bodhisattva (a `Bodhisattva' being something decidedly Buddhist), and will only become a Full Buddha in the future.

this isn't a different point of view, this is the teaching itself.

of course, thinking in such terms is somewhat problematic since there is no "Maitreya" which is existing. that said, we are constrained by conventional thought patterns for a great deal of our discourse. such is the nature of language, i suppose.

This notion is in line with Northern Buddhism of old Tibet

? is there a "new" Tibet somewhere?

and surrounding regions, and also with an esoteric Buddhism, and it requires the acceptance of progressive spiritual evolution, occurring by degrees and not leaps & bounds.

that is what the Suttas indicate is the method.

While many (most?) Buddhists believe that "enlightenment can be accomplished within a single lifetime" (with some notable exceptions), there are also many Buddhists who think it more reasonable to strive for mileposts along the way ... since the difference between utter ignorance and Infinite Wisdom is, ummm, rather significant indeed!

the Sudden Enlightenment schools are typical of the Mahayana, especially the Ch'an and T'ien T'ai schools point of view, though it is clear that this sudden awakening comes about as a result of proper causes and conditions which are indicative of a beings previous practice of the Dharma.

It is my finding and belief that one progresses on the path of enlightenment from arhatship toward Bodhisattvahood, thence from Bodhisattvahood to Full Buddhahood.

that is quite excellent being as how that is what is taught by Buddha Shakyamuni. the various schools tend to be using Upaya in their orientation and practice methodologies which is, often, why we find different Suttas/Sutras being emphaisized and so forth.

In keeping with this tradition (and it is tradition, it is a notion present with lamaism,

what is lamaism? do you mean Vajrayana Buddhism?

Maitreya Buddha is not actually a Buddha in His present spiritual status. Nor has His role as Maitreya Bodhisattva yet been fulfilled.

that is correct. Buddha Shakyamuni mentions this rather explicity and, further, mentions that whilst Maitreya is in the Tustia heaven, he is practicing the Bodhisattva Vow and, as a result of such practice, will take rebirth as a Buddha in this world system.

For proper understanding of that role, one must needs consult the various religious teachings around the world

this doesn't follow. why would adharmic traditions have any applicability in understanding the Dharma?

Though differing in certain particulars, each of these ideas parallels the notion of the Bodhisattva as found in Buddhism, with a direct correspondence when it comes to the presently-expected Christ or Avatar.

not really, taijasi. with a belief in an eternal soul or self, such teachings are well outside the remit of Buddha Dharma.

Since this is not the case, I trust that Dorjesempa Himself would have no objection ... much less a fellow bhikku.

thank you for the kind words, i am not a bhikku, just a lay person, and i didn't realize that you were.

gassho.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

OOPS!!!!

Crikey!!! Sorry about that folks! i hit the wrong button and ended up putting my post into Tajasis post and, inadvertantly, deleting some relevant text.

Tajasi, please accept my apology and please feel free to repost your original post.

metta,

~v

[taijasi]

I can't fix this, sorry.

Originally Posted by Vaj

what is lamaism? do you mean Vajrayana Buddhism?

Yes, more or less.

Quote: Maitreya Buddha is not actually a Buddha in His present spiritual status. Nor has His role as Maitreya Bodhisattva yet been fulfilled.

that is correct. Buddha Shakyamuni mentions this rather explicity and, further, mentions that whilst Maitreya is in the Tustia heaven, he is practicing the Bodhisattva Vow and, as a result of such practice, will take rebirth as a Buddha in this world system.

Right - I understand that this is what is taught, and further discussion would need to address the nature of `Tu****a Heaven.' I maintain that it no more "removes" Maitreya from having a Presence in this world as would your going to sleep. If anything, based on what we know about brain consciousness and the nature of astral travel (visiting the Bardo) - going to sleep can in fact greatly awaken us in terms of our understanding of ourselves, environment, etc. For some, it may mean a fog, but for those properly trained (and surely this would parallel with Maitreya Bodhisattva/Buddha), it is yet another sphere of service & of activity.

So, while Christians speak of Christ as having "ascended into Heaven" and being "seated at the right hand of the Father" - and somehow draw from this imagery the mistaken notion (imho) of a Christ uninvolved with the external, physical world ... I believe otherwise. Same with any notion that might connect Maitreya Bodhisattva's "residence" within Tu****a as having abstracted or removed him from a presence & continued activity within the "Three Worlds" of human endeavor (corresponding with body, speech and mind). The future prophecy - or prophecy of future return - refers, in my understanding, to an outward `Ministry' just as the previous Buddha had, some 2500 years ago, and earlier Buddha in previous eras.

Quote:
For proper understanding of that role, one must needs consult the various religious teachings around the world

this doesn't follow. why would adharmic traditions have any applicability in understanding the Dharma?

No tradition is adharmic imo. That suggests that Buddhism alone is the custodian of Truth, or is the Highest Way. An esoteric Buddhism, yes, I can abide with that. But every tradition has its esotericism, and behind the outer appearances, I take them all as but differing expressions or presentations of One Dharma. If at one level of presentation there are too many differences to feel comfortable drawing equivalents and parallels, then it will be useful (and necessary, it seems) to penetrate deeper. This will need to continue until arriving at that point where one ceases to see (too great a) disparity between even the sects & varying schools of one's own faith/tradition/religion ... much less another faith altogether. But in the end, the result shall/should be the same - One Truth, many paths.

The realization, of course, is up to each of us. If there is only one Dharma, and if Buddhism is the sole custodian or highest form/presentation of that Dharma, then do we maintain that Xianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. are just misguided sheep, or imperfect Teachings - of lesser avatars. I do not buy that. Christ and the Buddha are two great brothers, as I see it, the Eldest of a great Family, though not the sole exponents of the Gupta Vidya, of the Dharma - no matter how much their presentations may seem to differ, separated by even 500 short years.

Of course, not everyone will see this the same way. *shrug* Oh well.

Quote: Though differing in certain particulars, each of these ideas parallels the notion of the Bodhisattva as found in Buddhism, with a direct
correspondence when it comes to the presently-expected Christ or Avatar.

not really, taijasi. with a belief in an eternal soul or self, such teachings are well outside the remit of Buddha Dharma.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. Contemporary, conventional and exoteric Buddhism teach anatman. I do believe that Shakyamuni emphasized this idea, because he knew that the future of the `Soul' (in terms of FORM, an upadhi) was itself, limited (conditionally immortal, but not ETERNAL). So in his esoteric doctrines, I think he made as much of this plain as possible ... preferring that his Arhats and bhikkus focus on that which is beyond even the soul (PARA-Nirvana). This does not mean there is no soul, it simply means that anatman is the style, nature, or focus of teaching.

As an exoteric doctrine, it is unfortunate, imo, that it was seized and so greatly stressed as to - ah well, as in this case, appear incompatible with Western teachings. But such was Shakyamuni's karma, or error, and thus the reason for his additional efforts to assist Humanity - preserved in the esoteric annals (though even so, shrouded in deepest Mystery).

To sum this up, Om Mani Padme Hum are not meaningless words, or purely pretty imagery. They are a most sublime and esoteric Truth, and I'm hoping to say something about it soon on the Alt board. The JEWEL itself is the Eternal part - Shakyamuni's emphasis ... yet it is only by the unfolding of the LOTUS (see pic to left) that we can arrive at the Jewel, and that our higher, spiritual nature (Atma-Bodhi) can become liberated (transcending the Manasic nature of the Lotus itself). This is esoteric Buddhism, pure & simple, though - admittedly, not what you find in plainest words as you flip through the Dhammapada, or various sutras.

Quote:
Since this is not the case, I trust that Dorjesempa Himself would have no objection ... much less a fellow bhikku.

thank you for the kind words, i am not a bhikku, just a lay person, and i didn't realize that you were.

I guess I mean this, too, in a different sense that in exoteric Buddhism. Just as disciple, for me, refers to millions who know nothing of Xianity (or do not care or claim to be `Christian' - such as yourself, I gather), so the term `bhikku.' I mean them interchangeably, even if this wouldn't totally resonate with many Buddhists. In this sense, however, you are most definitely a Bhikku, don't you think?

No, I have not even taken vows ... although in a future world system, I hope we might all become Bodhisattvas, and Buddhas.

peace,

taijasi

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

there are many aspects of the Buddha Dharma that most non-Buddhists are not aware of, it is a large corpus of material, to be sure.

inhumilityI was further delighted to know that the prophecy had been fulfilled almost about 2000 years ago.
Vajradhara that is, of course, a non-Buddhist point of view.
inhumility I am an Ahmadi, a faith in Islam, neither Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) nor Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) were alive 2000 years ago when the prophecy was fulfilled. So don’t worry about that.
If one is in search of truth then one should not worry if the truth comes from the Buddhists’ sources or Non-Buddhists’ sources, one should have sole focus on the truth which has to be believed in one’s own benefit.
Vajradhara none of the conditions of which the prophecy speaks have come to pass yet that
inhumility Here, comes the problem, the prophecies are, as also their fulfillment, done in a symbolic language not necessarily what the outward words speak. This is a more secure and protected way, as due to the intervening time the verbal and sometimes even the written traditions get obscured due to the human element involved. To solve this problem, I wanted to quote from Quran the entire Chapter12: Yusuf (or Joseph) which consists of about five pages or 112 verses of Quran. This would make the concept clear as to what is the language of the dreams/visions and how these are fulfilled. It is a very interesting account of life of Yusuf (Joseph).This character is also mentioned in Bible and hence is a common treasure of Jews, Christians and Muslims. I wanted to present it before the viewers/members myself for fruitful and meaningful discussion in the prophecy.
Then there would be about 22 pages from the bookJesus in India, written by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908), CHAPTER 4,Evidence from books of history, SECTION 2, Evidence from books on Buddhism.
Vajradhara We are, at Comparative Religion, engaged in the process of discussion and dialog which has no winners and losers and no set procedures.
inhumility I agree with that.
VajradharaI have no problem with a lengthy discussion provided that the discussion is, primarily, based on your own words and views.
inhumility The discussion would be definitely from me, yet the sources have to be copied / pasted for authenticity. After all the prophecy has been pasted from the Penguin, one could not write it in one’s own words.
inhumility but if you please bear with me I will share it with you and all the viewers/members of the forum, as you had started that thread for this purpose
Vajradhara bear in mind where the thread is posted and the overall requirements therein. if you would like to present a non-Buddhist discussion advocating your religious founders fulfillment of a Buddhist prophecy, that would best be done on the appropriate forum.
inhumility As I have already mentioned neither Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) nor Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) were born 2000 years ago when the prophecy was fulfilled.
I would like to present my views on the thread the Prophecy of Maitreya.
Thanks
Red color is for excerpt from my previous post, Black color is excerpt from Vajradhara’s post and pink color is my present response.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Taijasi,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by taijasi

Right - I understand that this is what is taught, and further discussion would need to address the nature of `Tu****a Heaven.'

that, too, is addressed in the Abidharma section of the canon.

I maintain that it no more "removes" Maitreya from having a Presence in this world as would your going to sleep.

being a Buddhist, i'm rather partial to the Buddhas own teaching on this though others are free to come to the their own conclusions.

If anything, based on what we know about brain consciousness and the nature of astral travel (visiting the Bardo) - going to sleep can in fact greatly awaken us in terms of our understanding of ourselves, environment, etc. For some, it may mean a fog, but for those properly trained (and surely this would parallel with Maitreya Bodhisattva/Buddha), it is yet another sphere of service & of activity.

within the Vajrayana there are teachings for Lucid Dreaming which allow a being to use the dream state for such a purpose. though i first learned of lucid dreaming whilst investigating the Mayana culture and religion

No tradition is adharmic imo.

yet, they clearly are. the various dharma traditions are different, in many salient aspects, than the adharmic traditions. even within the dharma traditions, there is a pretty wide array of views to be found.

That suggests that Buddhism alone is the custodian of Truth, or is the Highest Way.

that is the claim that Buddha Shakyamuni puts forth.

But in the end, the result shall/should be the same - One Truth, many paths.

why *should* that be the case?

The realization, of course, is up to each of us. If there is only one Dharma, and if Buddhism is the sole custodian or highest form/presentation of that Dharma, then do we maintain that Xianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. are just misguided sheep, or imperfect Teachings - of lesser avatars.

Buddha Dharma claims that they are valid spiritual refuges, they are not the final refuge. the final refuge in Buddha Dharma.

I do not buy that.

it is not being sold so there is nothing to buy.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

no worries

Contemporary, conventional and exoteric Buddhism teach anatman.

indeed, since this is so i do not see the source of your disagreement.

As an exoteric doctrine, it is unfortunate, imo, that it was seized and so greatly stressed as to - ah well, as in this case, appear incompatible with Western teachings.

it is unfortunate that western teachings so greatly emphasize the self that they are incompatible with Buddha Dharma.

But such was Shakyamuni's karma,

sorry, tajasi, i do not believe that you have the ability to know another beings karma.

or error,

karma is not error. moreover, it is the fruit of karma which is the functional aspect of it. in any case, Buddhas do not produce karma in the manner of other sentient beings.

To sum this up, Om Mani Padme Hum are not meaningless words, or purely pretty imagery.

who said that they were? it is a mantra and mantras have specific meanings and usages in the various practice lineages which employ such things.

I guess I mean this, too, in a different sense that in exoteric Buddhism.

a bhikku is a fully ordained Buddhist monk. what other sense of the term is there?

I mean them interchangeably, even if this wouldn't totally resonate with many Buddhists. In this sense, however, you are most definitely a Bhikku, don't you think?

no, not really. that doesn't seem to fit for me as i am not ordained. if you are using the term "ordained monk" to mean "someone that practices the religion" then i suppose it would apply to me

No, I have not even taken vows ... although in a future world system, I hope we might all become Bodhisattvas, and Buddhas.

peace,

taijasi

we will

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Namaste inhumility.

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by inhumility

inhumility I am an Ahmadi, a faith in Islam, neither Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) nor Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) were alive 2000 years ago when the prophecy was fulfilled. So don’t worry about that.

[/quote]

there is no way in which the prophecy of Maitreya could be fulfilled today, let alone 2,000 years ago. that would be about the time of the arising of Jesus and, i can assure you, Buddha Dharma had not disappeared from this world system at that time. nor has it disappeared from this world system in modern times.

inhumility Here, comes the problem, the prophecies are, as also their fulfillment, done in a symbolic language not necessarily what the outward words speak.

perhaps that is true for your religious paradigm. that is not, however, the view that is taken within the overall auspices of the Buddha Dharma.

if one simply determines that the language used in meant to be indicative of something else, then one can take any prophecy, from any tradition, and apply it in a manner which seems to support their view. unfortunenately, this rarely produces a valid cognition of the teachings themselves.

This would make the concept clear as to what is the language of the dreams/visions and how these are fulfilled.

why would a Muslim teaching make clear the language used in a Buddhist teaching? that doesn't seem to make alot of sense to me. far better, in my view, to use the Buddhist paradigm to evaluate the claims of the Buddhist tradition and, in the same vein, use the Muslim paradigm to evaluate the teachings of Islam.

Then there would be about 22 pages from the bookJesus in India, written by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835-1908), CHAPTER 4,Evidence from books of history, SECTION 2, Evidence from books on Buddhism.

i've read that book and i disagree with the conclusions. moreover, i find supposed Buddhist sources do not support what the author contends that they do.

inhumility As I have already mentioned neither Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) nor Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) were born 2000 years ago when the prophecy was fulfilled.

the prophecy has not been fulfilled. that it has is a distinctly non-Buddhist idea. if you would like to present a thread on non-Buddhist fulfillment of Buddhist prophecies, that would be more aptly done in the Abrahamic or Comparative sub-forums.

I would like to present my views on the thread the Prophecy of Maitreya.
Thanks

you can freely present your views whereever you would like provided that you remain with the CoC. that said, if you want to have a discussion about non-Buddhist fulfillment of Buddhist prophecies that would be more aply done in a different sub-forum than this one.

metta,

~v

[taijasi]

Vaj,

Should you desire to discuss any of these subjects seriously, without being insulting, patronizing, or a general smart-a**, please let me know.

In the meantime, I will trust that you feel good about having "shown me up." Indeed, I would far rather allow you to "have the last word" - as an expert and authority on the subject ... than engage in a dialogue which you prefer to turn into a simple power struggle.

Sorry, no ego-stroking gonna happen here. If there's one thing I'll get out of your forum ... it's the awareness that I need not pursue this course to it's (logical and obvious) conclusion in order to benefit! (Indeed, I had started a response, but I think I should know better.)

And for that, I am grateful. Much appreciation!

namaskar,

taijasi

[Vajradhara]

Namaste taijasi,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by taijasi

Vaj,

Should you desire to discuss any of these subjects seriously, without being insulting, patronizing, or a general smart-a**, please let me know.

that is always my intention. i am quite serious about the Buddha Dharma.

In the meantime, I will trust that you feel good about having "shown me up."

this has nothing to do with the discussion.

Indeed, I would far rather allow you to "have the last word" - as an expert and authority on the subject ... than engage in a dialogue which you prefer to turn into a simple power struggle.

there is no power struggle here, tajasi. your views are not Buddhist views, generally speaking, as you are not a Buddhist.

moreover, one need not be well versed in Buddhist philosophical positions or practice lineages to understand that the prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. the Suttas are fairly explicit in this regard, in my view.

finally, i am not an "expert" in Buddha Dharma. i listen to many Dharma talks and read the Suttas and base my views upon such considerations.

Sorry, no ego-stroking gonna happen here. If there's one thing I'll get out of your forum ... it's the awareness that I need not pursue this course to it's (logical and obvious) conclusion in order to benefit! (Indeed, I had started a response, but I think I should know better.)

good thing for feeding the ego is, often, quite unhelpful. this is not "my forum", i am a moderator here. the forum belongs to I,Brian.

And for that, I am grateful. Much appreciation!

namaskar,

taijasi

you are more than welcome.

metta,

~v

[I, Brian]

Indeed, remember that if you ask a Buddhist questions about Buddhism, you will get a Buddhist response - not a non-Buddhist one.

[friendoftheworld]

Dear friends,

I think it's important that we learn to respect each other and other Buddhist traditions. In this discussion group there isn't that feeling of mutual respect. So I have decided not to visit this group anymore due to some disrespectul remarks said about my Guru in this discussion group. I would advise others to do the same if anyone in here is disrespectful to their Guru or their tradition. Don't ever let others damage your faith. Faith is what keeps Buddha's teachings alive.

[toujour_333]

well, i hate to jump into the middle of this, but if someone has time to answer a question about this prophecy, i would greatly appreciate it. i dont understand how buddha knew who was going to be the next buddha. can someone explain this to me? thanks.be well in peace