Proverbs 1:7 - Fear of the LORD

[wil]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

To me to be "G-d fearing" is to be mindful to the possibility of losing sight of his Divine Guidance and/or no longer deserving G-d's love.

Namaste Netti,

In my understanding, can't happen. Unconditional love is just that, unconditional. We could feel undeserving, but we'll never not recieve G!d's love. 7x70 and all that no matter what we do or who we are the light will always shine and be there when we are ready...

No fear here, just comfort in knowing.

peace

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by wil

In my understanding, can't happen. Unconditional love is just that, unconditional. We could feel undeserving, but we'll never not recieve G!d's love.

Almost all of the Heaven's Gate group who suicided in their San Diego house in 1995 were men who had been castrated. These castrations were presumably done as an expression of religiosity: "part of our test of faith is our hating this world, even our flesh body."

Historically, castration was a way that religious people (Christians) deal with lust. Btw, that included female castrations as well.
Skoptsy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point here is that a real appreciation for G-d's love for His creation would enable people to accept their nature without resorting to castration in the hope of earning G-d's love. It's quite bizarre that very religious people like members of the Heaven's Gate group don't get that.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

To me to be "G-d fearing" is to be mindful to the possibility of losing sight of his Divine Guidance and/or no longer deserving G-d's love. This is an ongoing, daily struggle. We seek G-d's love and want to do His will. But the fact is: we remain "in the flesh." There is no getting away from temptation. Fear of the Lord gives us perspective on past mistakes and also alerts us to the possibilty of temptation inherent in a situation. The protective value of Fear of the Lord is obvious, but it involves internal dissonance because this fear constantly reminds us of the unavoidable fact that "the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want." (Galatians 5:17; New International Version)

This situation makes for a tremendous amount of inner turmoil. I think it can drive some people crazy. My sense is that it has.

Note that the King James version of Galatians 5:17 is a slightly different translation that equates sinful nature with The Flesh. It reads as follows: "For the flesh lusted against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." This language gives the impression that sexual hang-ups are the source of conflicting emotions. This limited view of our baser nature may have led to rather bizarre attempts to mortify the flesh, including but not limited to self-castration.

The undue focus on the body strikes me as a shortsighted notion of the problem. For one thing, there is no atoning for my sins by means of any action I can take, so punishing myself is pointless in that regard. Secondly I could have my animalistic urges fully sublimated and still experience existential guilt or "Fear of the Lord" because my "sinful nature" relates to all forms of selfishness.

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Netti,

In my understanding, can't happen. Unconditional love is just that, unconditional. We could feel undeserving, but we'll never not recieve G!d's love. 7x70 and all that no matter what we do or who we are the light will always shine and be there when we are ready...

No fear here, just comfort in knowing.

peace

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Almost all of the Heaven's Gate group who suicided in their San Diego house in 1995 were men who had been castrated. These castrations were presumably done as an expression of religiosity: "part of our test of faith is our hating this world, even our flesh body."

Historically, castration was a way that religious people (Christians) deal with lust. Btw, that included female castrations as well.
Skoptsy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My point here is that a real appreciation for G-d's love for His creation would enable people to accept their nature without resorting to castration in the hope of earning G-d's love. It's quite bizarre that very religious people like members of the Heaven's Gate group don't get that.

2 Corinthians 4 addresses this well:

2 Corinthians 4
The Light of Christ’s Gospel

1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Cast Down but Unconquered

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us. 8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed— 10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death is working in us, but life in you.
13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed and therefore I spoke,” we also believe and therefore speak, 14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that grace, having spread through the many, may cause thanksgiving to abound to the glory of God.

Seeing the Invisible

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

To me to be "G-d fearing" is to be mindful to the possibility of losing sight of his Divine Guidance and/or no longer deserving G-d's love. This is an ongoing, daily struggle. We seek G-d's love and want to do His will. But the fact is: we remain "in the flesh." There is no getting away from temptation. Fear of the Lord gives us perspective on past mistakes and also alerts us to the possibilty of temptation inherent in a situation. The protective value of Fear of the Lord is obvious, but it involves internal dissonance because this fear constantly reminds us of the unavoidable fact that "the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want." (Galatians 5:17; New International Version)

This situation makes for a tremendous amount of inner turmoil. I think it can drive some people crazy. My sense is that it has.

Note that the King James version of Galatians 5:17 is a slightly different translation that equates sinful nature with The Flesh. It reads as follows: "For the flesh lusted against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." This language gives the impression that sexual hang-ups are the source of conflicting emotions. This limited view of our baser nature may have led to rather bizarre attempts to mortify the flesh, including but not limited to self-castration.

The undue focus on the body strikes me as a shortsighted notion of the problem. For one thing, there is no atoning for my sins by means of any action I can take, so punishing myself is pointless in that regard. Secondly I could have my animalistic urges fully sublimated and still experience existential guilt or "Fear of the Lord" because my "sinful nature" relates to all forms of selfishness.

Galatians 5;17
For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that you would like to do you do not do.






"Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire at all. For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that you would like to do you do not do. Furthermore, if you are being led by spirit, you are not under law.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.


"On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law."—Galatians 5:16-23; note also 1 Timothy 1:8-11.
Quite a list of opposites, is it not? Certainly those who are producing the fruitage of God’s spirit are not practicing the things called "the works of the flesh." They are looking forward to God’s kingdom with a sincere desire to inherit its blessings.

[greymare]

well then mee, ive said it before and ill say it again, Im well and truly stuffed, eh??

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by mee

[FONT=Arial]
[FONT=Arial]"Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire at all. For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that you would like to do you do not do. Furthermore, if you are being led by spirit, you are not under law.



"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.


"On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law."—Galatians 5:16-23; note also 1 Timothy 1:8-11.
Quite a list of opposites, is it not? Certainly those who are producing the fruitage of God’s spirit are not practicing the things called "the works of the flesh." They are looking forward to God’s kingdom with a sincere desire to inherit its blessings.

Mee, have you considered that inheriting God's Kingdom is receiving and living by the fruits of the Spirit, which frees us from the Works of the Flesh, and thus does away with the old system of things--the Law from the old covenent? (Compare Jeremiah 31:27-34)

[cyberpi]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled.

Originally Posted by wil

Unconditional love is just that, unconditional.

It appears to me as selfish, prideful, unfaithful, unfearful, and disobedient when in pursuit of an "unconditional love". There are conditions. The gospels are full of conditions. If there is a bare minimum upon which there is an unconditional aspect of love, then who wants to dwell there? Who wants to dwell in that hell? Who wants to be that charity case? Why be so heart hardened to not get off and away from that bare minimum? I submit that the lover of unconditional love had best try being unconditionally loving to all others... or consider that all agreement and faith is rooted in the meeting of some conditions imposed by each other.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by mee

Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, so that the very things that you would like to do you do not do."

...Certainly those who are producing the fruitage of God’s spirit are not practicing the things called "the works of the flesh." They are looking forward to God’s kingdom with a sincere desire to inherit its blessings.

Hello Mee, very quickly, I'd like to underscore what I was talking about. - Not about being inclined to sin (just some basic personal self-discipline takes care of the overt behavioral aspect). Rather, I was talking about internal struggle and maladaptive ways in which some cope with the intrapsychic conflict, which involves the dissonance described in Galatians 5:17

I suspect those who are actively producing the fruitage of God’s spirit in their lives are actually more likely to experience these internal conflicts - and also more likely to experience them very intensely - precisely because they want G-d's love and are attuned to G-d's leadings.

It seems some people who don't really care about what G-d wants for them. They just go their merry way, deceiving themselves and others, persisting in unrighteous self-idolatry, consorting with deceptive spirits, lying even to those who love them, laughing off the inflictions they wreak upon the world, bemused by their own hypocrisies, all the while staying busy with the sinful distractions by which they continually ignore G-d's claim on their soul.

Again, I'm not talking about any specific overt acts of sin. I'm talking about the inner life. It would seem some folks don't have the internal conflict I'm referring to at all even when they are totally mired in sin.

I was at a Catholic seminary the other day and having a discussion on conversion. One person said something to effect that conversion was no longer an issue once you've had a conversion experience. I was astounded. To me at least, it's a constant process and a constant struggle to resist sin and death.

Like I said, this struggle involves conflicts that keep me alert to the fact that what I want and what G-d wants for me are not always the same thing. Sometimes they're not even close.

[greymare]

hey, in my bible (yes i do have one) it says proverbs 1:7........stupid people have no respect for wisdom and refuse to learn.........
yes, well and you wonder why i have a problem with the bible........ sheeesh, not everyone is smart. similar to a thread i started elsewhere......... now i have the answer...... prv1:7b thnks for nothing, on behalf of all the stupid people out there.

[mee]

Originally Posted by greymare

well then mee, ive said it before and ill say it again, Im well and truly stuffed, eh??

no cloth yourself with a new personality. strip off the old one .ephesians 4;22 JOHN 17;3

[mee]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Like I said, this struggle involves conflicts that keep me alert to the fact that what I want and what G-d wants for me are not always the same thing. Sometimes they're not even close.

Yes that is true , we are all imperfect

[greymare]

but it wont make me smart now will it??

[mee]

Originally Posted by greymare

hey, in my bible (yes i do have one) it says proverbs 1:7........stupid people have no respect for wisdom and refuse to learn.........
yes, well and you wonder why i have a problem with the bible........ sheeesh, not everyone is smart. similar to a thread i started elsewhere......... now i have the answer...... prv1:7b thnks for nothing, on behalf of all the stupid people out there.

But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

psalm 37;11 its not about being smart or wise in a worldly way , its about being teachable .

"God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame."—1 CORINTHIANS 1:27.

[mee]

Originally Posted by greymare

but it wont make me smart now will it??

but it will make you righteous in Gods eyes


At that time Jesus said in response: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. matthew 11;25


"Since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not get to know God, God saw good through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing."—1 CORINTHIANS 1:21.

[greymare]

for every sentence you quote in the bible there is an equal sentence in the bible disproving it......... i rest my case