Proverbs

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by flowperson

I have always viewed the OT G-d as the G-d of fear and jealousy, and the G-d of the NT as the G-d of all-encompassing love. Does anyone else sense this distinction between the two concepts ?

flow....

Most definitly Flow,

It seems to me the God of the OT is a projection of God from the standpoint of the ego of man. And the NT is a projection of God from the divine spirit in man. But if any are offended by that, it is only my perception at this time.


Love in Christ,
Jm

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Great reply Path and I agree with this (so what else is new ). Good to see you back posting again!

luna

Thanks, Luna! I am still working on the dissertation, but I'm trying to find a little balance- it seems like I just work, work, work. I had to get a little escape to CR again.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Most definitly Flow,

It seems to me the God of the OT is a projection of God from the standpoint of the ego of man. And the NT is a projection of God from the divine spirit in man. But if any are offended by that, it is only my perception at this time.


Love in Christ,
Jm

Rather than be offended, I find this closely matches what I would think as well, and it's put much more succinctly than I'd be able to put it.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by flowperson

I have always viewed the OT G-d as the G-d of fear and jealousy, and the G-d of the NT as the G-d of all-encompassing love. Does anyone else sense this distinction between the two concepts ?

flow....

Not with verses such as this:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matt. 10:28

"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." - Luke 12:5

But I think of fear as having regard for God. God is God. He is the Creator of the Universe. He is so All-Powerful, He could wipe us out of existance in a single instant if He wanted to. He can squash us like a bug. His Holiness is such that even Isaiah, after giving stern rebuke and "Woes" in Chapter 5 to the people of Israel, is suddenly overwhelmed in Chapter 6 with his own woe, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

People who have no regard for God do not know what they are in for. Do you suppose that they will be able to stand before Almighty God so non-chalantly?

The NT is replete with people and exhortations to fear God, while at the same time told not to fear.

"And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles." - Acts 2:43

"And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things." - Acts 5:5

"There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." - Acts 10:1-2

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." - 2 Corinthians 7:1

"Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." - Ephesians 5:21

You have to have a fear of God, not in the cowering sense, but in the sense that you recognize God in your life. That you are accountable to Him in all your thoughts and actions. It is a fear that drives one to submit to His Love. You cannot experience God's Love until you've experienced that fear.

THEN when you have humbled yourself before God and He has granted you forgiveness, mercy, and grace, God will fill you with the Love that does not fear.

[flowperson]

Sorry Dondi:

AS I stated on another thread, some of us don't believe as you do, and quoting bible verse is not going to change me, at least. That is not a general overview that you have presented, but specific references to support your contentions.

We all know that one can find bible references to support any specific argument. This sort of "coercion" into love that you refer to, or rather the appearance of love, is not an all encompassing love at all and can never be IMO. It cannot be honest because the fear present at its roots always causes resentment and loathing down deep. Love cannot grow in such a polluted garden of the soul. "Respectful love" and "fear of power" that can crush us like we were bugs are two entirely different concepts.

Respect connotes a bilateral, conversational, and mutually beneficial relationship. What you have described and supported connotes a master and slave relationship to me. What I was referring to in contrasting the OT G-d to the NT G-d was to illuminate that the G-d of the OT generally evoked a master-slave relationship and that the NT G-d generally evokes a mutually respectful relationship of trust from which love tends to naturally evolve.

I understand your viewpoint and belief in this discussion, but as I said, you cannot convince me that this is the "way" that Jesus came here to teach us about. I've just seen and experienced too much to the contrary to allow me to be.

flow....

[flowperson]

Duplicate Post

[Dondi]

flow,

You asked, "Does anyone else sense this distinction between the two concepts?

I merely stated my opinion. I'm not out to change you. Yet you accuse me of bible-thumping.

But what disturbs me is, shouldn't the question you asked concerning scripture elicit a scriptural response?

I don't think God uses fear to coerce people into loving Him. But rather to discover who He is.

It is much like the fear a father puts toward his children when they are doing something wrong that could cause harm to themselves or others. For example, if he see one of his kids playing in the street after being told not to, he harshly disciplines that child, maybe even give him a whipping. The father's intention is not to punish, but the instill a fear that will preserve the child's life. He does it not out of hate, but out of love for the child.

Not all love is that flowery, fuzzy, good feeling type of love.

Of course we want to know this kind of love, but that's not what going to help us to grow. There has to be steel to go with the velvet.

Looking back, I'm glad my mother whipped my for things I done wrong, like the time I set my grandfather's barn on fire because my cousins and I were into playing with candles and fire. She wanted to make sure that I didn't do that again. Why? Because I could just as well have gotten trapped in the barn and burned to death.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

flow,

You asked, "Does anyone else sense this distinction between the two concepts?

I merely stated my opinion. I'm not out to change you. Yet you accuse me of bible-thumping.

But what disturbs me is, shouldn't the question you asked concerning scripture elicit a scriptural response?

I don't think God uses fear to coerce people into loving Him. But rather to discover who He is.

It is much like the fear a father puts toward his children when they are doing something wrong that could cause harm to themselves or others. For example, if he see one of his kids playing in the street after being told not to, he harshly disciplines that child, maybe even give him a whipping. The father's intention is not to punish, but the instill a fear that will preserve the child's life. He does it not out of hate, but out of love for the child.

Not all love is that flowery, fuzzy, good feeling type of love.

Of course we want to know this kind of love, but that's not what going to help us to grow. There has to be steel to go with the velvet.

Looking back, I'm glad my mother whipped my for things I done wrong, like the time I set my grandfather's barn on fire because my cousins and I were into playing with candles and fire. She wanted to make sure that I didn't do that again. Why? Because I could just as well have gotten trapped in the barn and burned to death.

Dondi,

I know you addressed your comment to flow but I would like to respond.

Thats exactly the point. Loving because of a fear of punishment is a concept of mans mind or ego. God's love is infinite and unconditional. Love has no need of punishment or fear. In my view, an understanding of God's Love, his essence, does not include condemnation, judgment, or punishment. In effect, these things are a natural product of the duality of mind in a self regulating universe where the source of all is God yet he partakes not in those things. (One can look at it in a sense that all projections other than love and peace which encompasses mercy also are merely reflected back to oneself.) Love is not to be feared. It can do no harm. It cannot punish. Only projecting these things on others puts them on ourselves. Hence, Jesus's words.. Judge not that ye be not judged, as you measure others it shall be measured unto you, condemn not that you be not condemned. These are all self pronounced and not a product of God judging or punishing but rather self-inflicted from the subconscious mind of man. Just a brief moment encompassed by God's love is enough to see there is no existence of any such thing as punishment or anything contrary to the nature of love in God.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Dondi]

Discipline is not punishment, it's love.

God's love might be unconditional, but man's understanding of it is not. Love has to have some basis. How are we to know God's love unless we know the conditions in which we can experience it?

Do you think God wants us to wallow in our sin? Are we going to "feel" God's love if we are living against His Will? Isn't repentance an important factor in turning our hearts to God?

God wouldn't be a god of love if He didn't want us to see a positive change in our lives. The trouble is that we are so used to our own ways, we resist change. Something has to wake us up, get our attention. You ever notice that fire alarms are not that pleasant to listen to?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by flowperson

It's OK Cage...confusion is the general condition of the world these days IMO.

But I was trying to say that the G-d of the OT seems to me to focus on punishing wrongdoing, holds grudges, and even states several times that He is a jealous G-d.

However the G-d revealed to us in the NT is predominantly a G-d of forgiveness and all-encompassing love without much of the punishment stuff. What do you think about this distinction, and why do you believe there is this difference between the two images and concepts ?

flow....

I once understood that concept of God, and embraced it, flow. It is an exhilirating feeling when you can feel such power within yourself. That was the strength I embraced at the time. I felt that his intense wrath is was what kept me. I called it peace, lol! I was young at the time, and viewed Gods peace [Power, strength, wrath] as that which would keep the other side of peace [The pleasant kind] It sometimes takes wrath to keep peace in this world.

Maybe that's Gods Crown?

Love is good, and pleasant, and can keep you out of trouble if you let it, but most anyone would leave that Love on the shelf when it comes to threats against family and friends, yes?

The truth is, we have both, and perhaps need both in order to survive the way we should. I think anger, and wrath and this kind of power should be in us, but instead of placing our hearts on such things, we should embrace his Love. I think this is what he wants from mankind...

As for the jealousy...there is but one God, and perhaps when we start making others up he gets frustrated, and merely wants to bring us back to him? I'd get jealous if my son were to ignore me, and embrace another man as his father. Jealousy shows, or inflicts a sense of weakness, and we get weak when we [think] we fail someone, and they turn somewhere else. I see no good end to jealousy, it is only a spirit that causes pain, and great wrath if it's not tamed.

No one knows the mind of God, but we were made in his image according to the Bible. He is Love, but that cannot be all he is, imo. We are much more than Love, but Love is what is worthy, imo.

I choose Love until the time his anger, and wrath is needed to keep me. This is the way I've come to understand God, and God in man. God is indeed Love, and if we embrace him in the Spirit he will lead our paths, but I don't think it is wise to ignore his Crown altogether. All Gods anger, wrath, jealously and fear inflicted stem from his Love for his people, imo.

This is how I am beginning to put thinks together, but Love is my main stay, and also an appreciation for what God has given me through his beautiful creation. Life can be a miracle if you let it, or choose to see it as such.


Love,

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Discipline is not punishment, it's love.

God's love might be unconditional, but man's understanding of it is not. Love has to have some basis. How are we to know God's love unless we know the conditions in which we can experience it?

Do you think God wants us to wallow in our sin? Are we going to "feel" God's love if we are living against His Will? Isn't repentance an important factor in turning our hearts to God?

God wouldn't be a god of love if He didn't want us to see a positive change in our lives. The trouble is that we are so used to our own ways, we resist change. Something has to wake us up, get our attention. You ever notice that fire alarms are not that pleasant to listen to?

Hi Dondi,
You make a good point but love is not known by knowing about things or conditions or even thinking we understand it. Love is purely experienced and there is no doubt of what it is. Words can't even come close to the experience of realizing God/Love 's presence.

Love will let a man go his own way because it will not interfere with his choices. This is the natural way of love. In the end, we will find our own way was not what it seemed and return. God is in no hurry. He is eternal and has all the time in the universe so to speak. Something does and will wake us up but it is not the discipline or punishment of God. It is our own tiredness of wallowing in our own self made filth. (prodigal son) Love cooperates but doesn't partake.

Love in Christ,
JM

[flowperson]

Cage and Joseph...Thank you both for your words and thoughts which embody eternal wisdom.

flow....

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Cage

(snip)

The truth is, we have both, and perhaps need both in order to survive the way we should. I think anger, and wrath and this kind of power should be in us, but instead of placing our hearts on such things, we should embrace his Love. I think this is what he wants from mankind...

As for the jealousy...there is but one God, and perhaps when we start making others up he gets frustrated, and merely wants to bring us back to him? I'd get jealous if my son were to ignore me, and embrace another man as his father. Jealousy shows, or inflicts a sense of weakness, and we get weak when we [think] we fail someone, and they turn somewhere else. I see no good end to jealousy, it is only a spirit that causes pain, and great wrath if it's not tamed.

(snip)

Love,

Hi Cage,
Wonderful post and I can relate to much of what you say. I would just like to offer a different perspective on the two paragraphs you posted within above.

If I perceive your words correctly, you see the necessitiy for anger and wrath in yourself to survive. Correct me if I am mistaken. Then you also see these qualities plus jealousy in God along with frustration. Let me explain the best I am able why in my view this cannot be by reason.

If you were an all-present, all-knowing, all powerful God and you created something that you give the power of free choice to, knowing full well that the possibility existed that they would not love or obey you from their own free will then why would you ever have cause to be angry with them? Can you see that God cannot be disappointed in you. He made you subject to vanity and carnal nature. It is not an accident. Not for authority but so as not to put a stumbling block before you: Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Now if God made you that way and knew full well the ramifications of giving you choice then how can he get angry that you are the way you are? How can God be jealous of anything. All is his regardless of whether they love him or not. How could he be all knowing and not know this is what would be? There is nothing for him to be jealous of. He is complete. No part is missing. Jealousy would do him no good. Jealousy is impossible to conceive in God's love.

I perceive from some comments by others on various threads that there are those who view love as an act, a noun, doing something, or an understanding. I think the love we are speaking of is 'a state of being' that yes, manifests fruits, such as joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance, etc But love is not the fruits. And most definitely, anger, wrath and jelousy cannot be included as even a fruit of Love/God.

Just some things to consider and contemplate. Thanks for your patience.
Love in Christ,
JM

[Cage]

If you were an all-present, all-knowing, all powerful God and you created something that you give the power of free choice to, knowing full well that the possibility existed that they would not love or obey you from their own free will then why would you ever have cause to be angry with them? Can you see that God cannot be disappointed in you. He made you subject to vanity and carnal nature. It is not an accident. Not for authority but so as not to put a stumbling block before you: Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

I see what you're saying, but mankind abuses the power we have, and that cannot please God. We have free will so we can choose to live differently. Love is the only way to temper what we have become, imo.

Now if God made you that way and knew full well the ramifications of giving you choice then how can he get angry that you are the way you are? How can God be jealous of anything. All is his regardless of whether they love him or not. How could he be all knowing and not know this is what would be? There is nothing for him to be jealous of. He is complete. No part is missing. Jealousy would do him no good. Jealousy is impossible to conceive in God's love.

I view jealousy as a weakness, and I see no weakness in God. His anger is merely against those who would destroy the essence of his Love in mankind, but he is more than Love, imo. I think our knowledge of this is what has caused man to fall. We were made in his image, and we have abused the power he has given us. It will take Love to temper us, and lead us away from abusing this power...

I perceive from some comments by others on various threads that there are those who view love as an act, a noun, doing something, or an understanding. I think the love we are speaking of is 'a state of being' that yes, manifests fruits, such as joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance, etc But love is not the fruits. And most definitely, anger, wrath and jelousy cannot be included as even a fruit of Love/God.

Just some things to consider and contemplate. Thanks for your patience.
Love in Christ,
JM

Love is both action, and feeling, and its fruits are good indeed. Love can lead anyman away from our destuctive ways, but I feel that sometimes we must also embrace who God made us to be. You say there is no wrath in Love, but what does it destroy within the heart? Surely, there is more to God then just Love, and if we are made in his image, we should be fully capable of tempering that which we abuse through the Love God has for us.

With that said, do you think we should deny what God made us, and and resist anger and wrath at all times? Do you think it wise to allow those who would kill to do so w/o a fight? If we walk in Love, then those who would rise against us are an enemy of God, and God has given us the power to overcome them.

Through Love, or through anger and wrath is the question?

I Love myself, my friends, and my family, and I do fight back when I must, but out of Love. Do you think we should abandon our right to defend ourselves, and leave such power in the hands those who abuse it by giving our lives over to them?

Joseph, your post made me think a great deal, and I'm not sure the answers, lol!


Love,

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Cage

I see what you're saying, but mankind abuses the power we have, and that cannot please God. We have free will so we can choose to live differently. Love is the only way to temper what we have become, imo.

Yes, one could look at it as mankind abusing the power we have but God is not a man that he should choose to be pleased over 'this' and displeased over 'that'. We can choose to live how we want. That is the nature of his love for us. We can be the way we are or can change and be different. All our choices have consequences of our own choice. It seems to me you are correct that love is the way to temper what we have become. Still God is not displeased with his creation no matter what. Why? Because it is exactly as he intended it to be in spite of what it looks like to ones mind. Otherwise, God would not be all-knowing.

Originally Posted by Cage

I view jealousy as a weakness, and I see no weakness in God. His anger is merely against those who would destroy the essence of his Love in mankind, but he is more than Love, imo. I think our knowledge of this is what has caused man to fall. We were made in his image, and we have abused the power he has given us. It will take Love to temper us, and lead us away from abusing this power...

It seems to me your first sentence is very insightful. Your second sentence seems to me to contradict that insight. NO one can destroy the essence of his love in mankind. It is present everywhere at all times. It can only be covered as a cloud covers the sun by our ignorance. It is indestructible and cannot fail. Where is his anger? Anger is a weakness of man just as is jealousy.

Originally Posted by Cage

Love is both action, and feeling, and its fruits are good indeed. Love can lead anyman away from our destuctive ways, but I feel that sometimes we must also embrace who God made us to be. You say there is no wrath in Love, but what does it destroy within the heart? Surely, there is more to God then just Love, and if we are made in his image, we should be fully capable of tempering that which we abuse through the Love God has for us.

Okay Cage. I understand you see Love as action and feeling. Whether it is true or not that is something you will have to discover or find out for yourself. To answer your question, Wrath destroys nothing of love. It is mans substitute for love only. Saying God is Love is about as close as one can come with words. There is more to man than love but God is Love. That's why I say it is not an action or feeling though you may see actions or have feelings. Love is more 'a state of being' from which these things manifest. To me, that understanding seems most important even though it is being a bit 'picky' with words. Please do not be in the slightest offended by my expressing a different view. Your view is as valid as mine, just different in some ways. To many my words may sound like pure nonsense. I understand where they are coming from. My words are only for you to consider and contemplate as I have done with yours.

Originally Posted by Cage

With that said, do you think we should deny what God made us, and and resist anger and wrath at all times? Do you think it wise to allow those who would kill to do so w/o a fight? If we walk in Love, then those who would rise against us are an enemy of God, and God has given us the power to overcome them.

I think that we are more of what we made ourselves by choice. God made us 'perfect'. He made no mistakes and everything is under control. "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword". Personally you do what you must do. For some it is their destiny in this life to be a soldier and kill. I cannot say for you but personally I would rather be killed than to kill because death has no power over me.

Originally Posted by Cage

Through Love, or through anger and wrath is the question?

I Love myself, my friends, and my family, and I do fight back when I must, but out of Love. Do you think we should abandon our right to defend ourselves, and leave such power in the hands those who abuse it by giving our lives over to them?

Joseph, your post made me think a great deal, and I'm not sure the answers, lol!

Love,

Sometimes my words are a bit gruff in my posts but regardless, I am as you and as one on a journey. God loves us all equally and unconditionally. Take my words lightly and experience life for yourself. It seems to me it is good to consider other views. I again cannot advise you on what you should or shouldn't do. One does what he does. It is what it is, but for me in this point of my journey, death holds no surprises so why should I resist?

Love in Christ,
JM