Proverbs

[Cage]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Yes, one could look at it as mankind abusing the power we have but God is not a man that he should choose to be pleased over 'this' and displeased over 'that'. We can choose to live how we want. That is the nature of his love for us. We can be the way we are or can change and be different. All our choices have consequences of our own choice. It seems to me you are correct that love is the way to temper what we have become. Still God is not displeased with his creation no matter what. Why? Because it is exactly as he intended it to be in spite of what it looks like to ones mind. Otherwise, God would not be all-knowing.

I understand this, and agree that we experience the outcomes of our choices, and for some, that could come in form of something unpleasant, and turn into something we could learn from. We [mankind] view things in terms of good and bad, but it is all just subjective response to what happens in our lives, and the choices we make. It is a way to navigate the realm of life I think.

God may have intended for us to abuse our powers, or rather knew that we would. Maybe that is what happened in Eden when we ate the fruit giving us that kind of knowledge? The penalty was death, and perhaps this is what he knew, that we would abuse that knowledge and go in the way of power, and wrath? It could be that mankind needed to experience this kind of reality, so we might change and embrace the Love God has for us, and turn away from this kind of destructive behavior?

It seems to me your first sentence is very insightful. Your second sentence seems to me to contradict that insight. NO one can destroy the essence of his love in mankind. It is present everywhere at all times. It can only be covered as a cloud covers the sun by our ignorance. It is indestructible and cannot fail. Where is his anger? Anger is a weakness of man just as is jealousy.

Perhaps, and I'll agree that no man can take away Love. I must have mis spoken, as I often do. There would be some who would speak against this Spirit, though, and that in itself could turn one away from ever giving Love a chance. I'll have to think about anger as a weakness; even Jesus became angry, and he was full of Gods Spirit.

Okay Cage. I understand you see Love as action and feeling. Whether it is true or not that is something you will have to discover or find out for yourself. To answer your question, Wrath destroys nothing of love. It is mans substitute for love only. Saying God is Love is about as close as one can come with words. There is more to man than love but God is Love. That's why I say it is not an action or feeling though you may see actions or have feelings. Love is more 'a state of being' from which these things manifest. To me, that understanding seems most important even though it is being a bit 'picky' with words. Please do not be in the slightest offended by my expressing a different view. Your view is as valid as mine, just different in some ways. To many my words may sound like pure nonsense. I understand where they are coming from. My words are only for you to consider and contemplate as I have done with yours.

Love is an essence, and I think it is Gods essence. Even so, we are not God; we are not that essence. Man is limited in how we express, show, feel, and experience it, imo. I don't think Love will ever radiate from man as it does from God. The best we can hope for is to experience it, and show it, and feel it, and walk in it.

Btw, I'm not in the least offended, Joseph. I like your views, and agree with many of them. Disagreement is part of life, and it is Love that keeps the common bond. Also, I consider most every view I come in contact with. You never know who you're speaking with, and what they actually 'know'.

I think that we are more of what we made ourselves by choice. God made us 'perfect'. He made no mistakes and everything is under control. "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword". Personally you do what you must do. For some it is their destiny in this life to be a soldier and kill. I cannot say for you but personally I would rather be killed than to kill because death has no power over me.

I think death is a natural part of life, and there is perfection in it. I wonder if we 'never' died, how mankind would be living today, if at all? Death is needed for the natural order of things.

"Those who live by the sword die by the sword" is not always true, unless you mean by the sword of Spirit. No one in their right mind would kill if there were another alternative that didn't involve dying, and leaving family members behind; I certainly wouldn't. It might hurt my soul deeply to kill another, and that would be because I Love them. Still, I think Love heals all wounds, and it can heal those who have been subject to such events as well.

We 'all' have power over death; anyone can choose to die instead of kill when such situations arise, but I honestly don't 'know' what I would do in such a stiuation. I believe we have the right to stand up for ourselves and not be pushed around, though. I don't think God created man in his image for no reason. We are treasured by God more than most realize, and of this I am certain.

We are also stronger than most realize, and he Loves each and every one of us, faults and all. We can evoke anger, wrath and all these undesirable things, and many choose to abuse them, but they are in us for a reason. If they came by way of the tree of knowledge, then I suspect this is what he wanted, as he is all knowing.

Jesus the Christ came in Love, and I Love him, but I Love God more, and according to the OT, God has a dangerous side, too. Just like me, you?, him, her and every other creature on this earth. You can't have one w/o the other, and that is why we shouldn't ignore that part of him. We were made in his image ... Christ showed us his Love, and the OT showed us his dangerous side. Perfect Love casts out fear, and I think it is the full knowledge of God and God in us that allows this. (My view for now)

"If God be for us, then who can be against us"

Sometimes my words are a bit gruff in my posts but regardless, I am as you and as one on a journey. God loves us all equally and unconditionally. Take my words lightly and experience life for yourself. It seems to me it is good to consider other views. I again cannot advise you on what you should or shouldn't do. One does what he does. It is what it is, but for me in this point of my journey, death holds no surprises so why should I resist?

Love in Christ,
JM

I choose Love, Joseph, and if the time comes that I am faced with difficult choices, I will follow that which is conjured within. We are all travelers in this life, and perhaps some are summoned to follow Jesus even unto the cross, while others are to remain simple humans containing what we have been shown as the fullness of God in them?

Who will I end up being is not yet known to me, but know that I will walk in the same Love Christ did until such a day that my dangerous side is conjured. I am not encouraging anger, or violence. I am merely suggesting that we had the right to defend ourselves in OT times, and I believe we still have that right today, and I don't think God would turn us away if we made the decision to protect self, or family out of Love. These are my views for the moment, but things change, and so do my views as you can see. My heart is with the Love of God, and I pray that I can continue steadfast in that Love w/o ever being put in a situation that would lead me to violence.


Much Love, Joseph. (I'm still trying to find my place, man)

[Cage]

I think I'm gonna stop thinking so much for the time being, and attempt to live, and enjoy life for a bit. I do this when I get a bit burned out, and that's what is happening right now. The endless information, and the different views for me to break down are starting to weigh heavy on me, and that is not a good thing. I'm taking a break from the Bible as well, as it too can weigh heavy on a man. Tomorrow I give a special thanks, and you all will be included, as I've gotten a good deal of info from you to discern over the next few months.

I've enjoyed my stay, but it's time to take a break. I'm sure to be back with another viewpoint, and I'm certain I'll be ready to share it when I return, lol.

I'll probably peak in from time to time until I'm ready to post, so until then, I wish you all well, and send my Love.


Take care,


James

[JosephM]

Cage,
I really thought your last post was very expressive and well written. I have snipped out much of it 12 paragraphs because I have no different view for you to consider. It was well thought out. I do have comments on a few of your responses if I may.....

Originally Posted by Cage

(snip)
Love is an essence, and I think it is Gods essence. Even so, we are not God; we are not that essence. Man is limited in how we express, show, feel, and experience it, imo. I don't think Love will ever radiate from man as it does from God. The best we can hope for is to experience it, and show it, and feel it, and walk in it.

Perhaps you will remember reading Jesus saying "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect". It seems to me it must be possible if you believe he said it. Also if God is within you why cannot his love ever radiate from you in perfection. Will we limit God's ability to transform us by a belief that one cannot attain the fullness of Christ. Do you believe this writing by Paul? Ephes. 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
It seems to me in the fullness of times we will come to that unity. Christ is divinity in you. It is not robbery to admit that God is being formed in you and all things are possible including that you will be One with the Father even as Jesus spoke of. That is your inheritance as a son of God. You can take it or leave it. You are more than this flesh and blood you see. You are born of the spirit of God. One gets what one settles for until one awakens to his true nature in God. God will have to show you what that is.

Originally Posted by Cage

I think death is a natural part of life, and there is perfection in it. I wonder if we 'never' died, how mankind would be living today, if at all? Death is needed for the natural order of things.

It seems to me there is no death in Christ Cage except to the flesh. Jesus testified of this. He showed the way to life eternal. That was his message. Remember the parable thread in Luke. "What must I do to inherit eternal life? the lawyer asked Jesus" . Perhaps I misunderstand your words here.
Life never ends even if the earth is destroyed. Eternal Spirit cannot die. You are eternal spirit. It is either true or myth. That is for you to discover.

"Those who live by the sword die by the sword" is not always true, unless you mean by the sword of Spirit. No one in their right mind would kill if there were another alternative that didn't involve dying, and leaving family members behind; I certainly wouldn't. It might hurt my soul deeply to kill another, and that would be because I Love them. Still, I think Love heals all wounds, and it can heal those who have been subject to such events as well.

No Cage, I meant that as always true. Perhaps there are many of us that are not in our right mind. If you kill somebody, you kill yourself. Divine justice. Don't limit your life to this short vapor of time that you see before you. "Whatsoever a man soweth that also shall he reap." said Jesus. Those were not just idle words but that, perhaps God will have to reveal to you himself. It seems to me, one doesn't kill because they love someone. One kills because they think they are separate and cling to the things of this world. Jesus said you are in the world but you are not of the world. When you understand what he meant perhaps your view will change.

Originally Posted by Cage

Jesus the Christ came in Love, and I Love him, but I Love God more, and according to the OT, God has a dangerous side, too. Just like me, you?, him, her and every other creature on this earth. You can't have one w/o the other, and that is why we shouldn't ignore that part of him. We were made in his image ... Christ showed us his Love, and the OT showed us his dangerous side. Perfect Love casts out fear, and I think it is the full knowledge of God and God in us that allows this. (My view for now)

Well yes, according to the OT as translated and understood by most, God has a dangerous side and exhibits all the petty characteristics of men and even shows favoritism for a chosen people or deserving few. Exhibiting the attributes of a disturbed child or a parent, directing earthquakes, floods, getting mad and trashing out cities not to mention telling men to kill men, women, children and even sometimes the animals. And then it tries to tell you God is all merciful. To me, this is everything that god is not, except for the all merciful. It never ceases to amaze me how naive our minds are. It would be good for one to discern what God is not because mens religion has distorted the truth into the anthropomorphic perceptions of the ego.

Love in Christ,
JM

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Cage

I think I'm gonna stop thinking so much for the time being, and attempt to live, and enjoy life for a bit. I do this when I get a bit burned out, and that's what is happening right now. The endless information, and the different views for me to break down are starting to weigh heavy on me, and that is not a good thing. I'm taking a break from the Bible as well, as it too can weigh heavy on a man. Tomorrow I give a special thanks, and you all will be included, as I've gotten a good deal of info from you to discern over the next few months.

I've enjoyed my stay, but it's time to take a break. I'm sure to be back with another viewpoint, and I'm certain I'll be ready to share it when I return, lol.

I'll probably peak in from time to time until I'm ready to post, so until then, I wish you all well, and send my Love.


Take care,


James

Thank you Cage. You will be missed...I think you have a beautiful view of God and Love.

Don't forget to come back!

luna

[flowperson]

Cage..Godspeed, thanks for your soulful thinking, and return as soon as you can.

flow....

[JosephM]

Best Wishes James and looking forward to hearing from you in the near future. Sorry I missed your last post before I posted a response to the previous one or I would not have added anymore to your heaviness.

Love in Christ,
JM

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Yes, one could look at it as mankind abusing the power we have but God is not a man that he should choose to be pleased over 'this' and displeased over 'that'. We can choose to live how we want. That is the nature of his love for us. We can be the way we are or can change and be different. All our choices have consequences of our own choice. It seems to me you are correct that love is the way to temper what we have become. Still God is not displeased with his creation no matter what. Why? Because it is exactly as he intended it to be in spite of what it looks like to ones mind. Otherwise, God would not be all-knowing.

Reminds me of:
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Joseph, sorry I am picking on your words for the moment. When I see someone say what God (swt) is or isn't, I am always drawn to give it a close inspection. I figure it is either a teaching from God or breaking one of the ten commandments. I also tend to scrutinize when someone says 'we' when I'm part of the 'we'.

But there is something else that draws me to respond. I saw a priest on a national PBS station talking about global warming and hurricane Katrina, and he made the rather sharp statement that, "God did it... God was responsible." When questioned further this alledged priest said something like, "God is all knowing and all powerful... he would have prevented it if he didn't want it to happen." There was another prominent TV evangelist who said that he did NOT know why God allowed it, but he was confident the purpose was to build something better.

I can think of a number of ways that I would respond to the priest, minister, or reverend... but it would be kind of a rebuke. Maybe something like, "Is God thus responsible for NOT preventing me from doing things, or for NOT making me do the things that I should?"... or "Then I'll take God's example and baptize my TV, computer, car, home, and dog... after they repent."... or "I rebuke you for being evil like me, because I have conjured up and tested these same thoughts about God in my mind long before you ever spoke them. Just as this hurricane was evil and without a purpose, so too are my speculations. Just as this hurricane caused damage, so too could my speculations. Come hell or high water I think that evil part of me is going to die. Don't you?"... or "Why do you speak without knowledge about God, while God has the knowledge and does NOT speak about you?"... or "If you say God loves me and is reponsible for looking the other way... then how do you say I should return his love?"... or "I was going to look the other way while you speculate and say evil things about God, but then by your logic I too would be responsible for seeing something and looking the other way."

Joseph I did see the same logic in your post: "exactly as he intended it... all-knowing." I would state my objection this way: I don't think everything here is per God's will or intention. If it were then I think people would be servants of his will, and nothing more. I know that I have sinned and it would displease people including God (swt). But if I am responsible for sinning then I had to of had a choice in doing it. I selected the genes or desires of the body (or soul) over what I knew at some level was wrong. That selection resulted in sins that I know God (swt) was displeased with. So I know that not everything is as God (swt) intended.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

(snip)
Joseph I did see the same logic in your post: "exactly as he intended it... all-knowing." I would state my objection this way: I don't think everything here is per God's will or intention. If it were then I think people would be servants of his will, and nothing more. I know that I have sinned and it would displease people including God (swt). But if I am responsible for sinning then I had to of had a choice in doing it. I selected the genes or desires of the body (or soul) over what I knew at some level was wrong. That selection resulted in sins that I know God (swt) was displeased with. So I know that not everything is as God (swt) intended.

Hi Cyberpi,

You must be careful not to read into my words. 'Exactly as he intended it' is in respect to his intentions to give man choice. Knowing man would at times choose unwisely God is not displeased at his creation just because choices have not been in wisdom. He created the ability to choose knowing full well its ramifications. Therefore in that sense he is not moved by your choice to displeasure.

It was never meant to say God is sending storms or not preventing them or anything of that nature. Storms and disasters happened before man even came on the scene. Perhaps you would like it better if I restated it as "All things are in God's divine order" therefore he is not displeased by any of it. Even that has to be taken in context of what I said above.

Love in Christ,
JM

[cyberpi]

Joseph,
Ok... I saw an extension of your understanding of free-will and choices that you had described before. Mind you I don't think anyone is blinded by a belief, nor necessarily righteous by one, so don't hold it against me if I misread you and yet question your words. I am interested in understanding your viewpoint a little more. I jumped into a thread with unrelated comments so I'll PM it.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

You must be careful not to read into my words. 'Exactly as he intended it' is in respect to his intentions to give man choice. Knowing man would at times choose unwisely God is not displeased at his creation just because choices have not been in wisdom. He created the ability to choose knowing full well its ramifications. Therefore in that sense he is not moved by your choice to displeasure.

It was never meant to say God is sending storms or not preventing them or anything of that nature. Storms and disasters happened before man even came on the scene. Perhaps you would like it better if I restated it as "All things are in God's divine order" therefore he is not displeased by any of it. Even that has to be taken in context of what I said above.

I disagree. As a Father, would he not be concerned when one of His children makes the wrong choices? Would He not try to correct that child? I know if my kids got into some kind of trouble, I would try to help them, but I would also take measures to see that it doesn't happen again.

As a father, if I can grieve for my children and see the wisdom in correction, how much more does the Father of Lights grieve for us and move to correct us?

Don't you think the Spirit is grieved when we make the wrong choices? Don't you ever feel that in your heart? I declare to you that there are times when I've done something wrong with little thought that it was wrong only to realize later under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that what I did was wrong. And only when i repented of it, did that sense of rightness return. God is active in our growth.

[Virtual_Cliff]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I disagree. As a Father, would he not be concerned when one of His children makes the wrong choices? Would He not try to correct that child? I know if my kids got into some kind of trouble, I would try to help them, but I would also take measures to see that it doesn't happen again.

As a father, if I can grieve for my children and see the wisdom in correction, how much more does the Father of Lights grieve for us and move to correct us?

Don't you think the Spirit is grieved when we make the wrong choices? Don't you ever feel that in your heart? I declare to you that there are times when I've done something wrong with little thought that it was wrong only to realize later under the conviction of the Holy Spirit that what I did was wrong. And only when i repented of it, did that sense of rightness return. God is active in our growth.

I have known the sense of fear, a wild maddening fear, but God's love was the lifeline that helped me through. I'm sure that it was God who sent the fear and I got what I asked for - it did change me, for the better.

I once knew someone who was converted by a hellfire sermon. She later learned to love and trust God, but the fear never went away. She was loving but nervous and suffered from eczema. I wish I could have helped her to stop being so fearful.

[InLove]

Cage--

I just saw your last post. Maybe you will see mine when you hopefully return.

There is an great deal of information to consider on these boards, and I know from experience that it can indeed overwhelm at times. Sometimes a break can be helpful.

I hope that you will come back and post again. Even though you and I have not spoken directly very much, I do run across your posts now and then, and the poetry you offered touched my heart, and I want you to know I still think of it quite often.

InPeace,
InLove