Psychedelics and Buddhism

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Kaldayen

Well ... that's a way of seeing it..
Personnaly, I don't fear death, I know it's unavoidable, but I love life too much to tempt faith like that. You may need that challenge to appreciate life at its maximum but I, and many others I think, don't.

Kal

(and as the clouds rose, the deities gathered to greet the ever-merciful Kaldayen who had risen to the shimmering planes of the moral high ground)

The affliction you are caught by is called attachment in Buddhist terminology. Loving life too much that is. Just a thought.

I'm not saying you need to have a death-rebirth experience to enjoy life anyway. Fasting, which is found in Islam and Jainism, that I know of, is a typical way in which people put themselves through hardship in order to gain a greater respect and appreciation for life. The old-world cultures that utilised entheogens (psychedelics) had a great respect for the drugs, nature, each other. I posit that the humbling experience of ego-loss had a major part to play though.

----------------

Probably more to do with the issue of responsibility - it is very difficult to conceptualise everyday reality while tripping, and thus your responsibilities to it. For example, crossing the road safely when you can't even judge the speed of the vehicles heading towards you.

I think the issue runs far deeper than what you make it out to. Alcohol has a far greater effect in this area anyway and not much has been done. People don't usually frequent highways while tripping anyway. Bad for the trip.

what sort of magic mushrooms are you referring to? You should make that clear before making sweeping generalisations of what weights and measurements to take.

Crickey! I hope nobody's going out and getting zonked simply on what I've said. Please, the issue of psychedelics is a very sensitive one. You need to do your research before even attempting these powerful psychoactives. A good web-site for resources is www.erowid.com. Has EVERYTHING you need to know.

Magic mushrooms usually means those containing psilocybin and psilocin. There are many types, most from Meso-America. The fly-agaric has an entirely different effect. It is very different. Also much more dangerous. I'd skip on this one if I were new/you.

[samabudhi]

I feel this thread has lost it's way a bit. My intention was to highlight or question the applicability of psychedelics to Buddhist meditation. Politics is so boring. Is there no-one who has tried to merge the two?

[Zenda71]

Re: Plants of the Gods ... the only books I've read in this regard were written by Wade Davis and a book by Nicole Maxwell. (I'm mildly interested in ethno-botany.)

Personally, I try to avoid mind-altering substances. To me, it is about not violating the precept about injesting anything that inhibits mindfulness. Although psychedelics may help some achieve a higher level of mindfulness (or maybe they only seem to help?), I just don't think they would be helpful to me. I know how I am with alcohol and even too much caffeine.

So it's the long and winding road for me ...

[Pathless]

For the sake of this discussion, where does marijuana fall? Are we considering it "psychedelic" or merely psychoactive? That's a pedantic question, actually, so I'll just go ahead and say what I was going to say.
I can definitely relate to what Zenda just said about inhibiting mindfulness. I've used various substances in my past; a favorite activity of mine at one time was smokin' pot. I always have had a sort of love/hate relationship with that stuff. On the one hand, I really enjoyed the novelty of an altered state of consciousness and the introspection that it brings about, and on the other, those same qualities freak me out. Zenda mentioned that substances can inhibit mindfulness, and then speculated that they may help some people achieve a higher level of mindfulness. From my own experience, I notice that the level of introspection goes way up. My mind becomes super analytical, often to the point of paranoia. So, if this is mindfulness, well then, I guess mindfulness is enhanced. I mean, I certainly feel very mindful of who I am, where I am, what's happening to me/my body, my mortality, how other people/animals are interacting with me. The problem, though, is that this level of mindfulness doesn't bring about a sense of well-being; often it brings about a sense of fear and losing control, a feeling of chaos. On some level I enjoy this as a challenge, but at the same time, the most human and vulnerable part of me is terrified. Yet, I've had some really profound, refreshing, and liberating insights in chemically altered states of consciousness.
Like I said, a love/hate realationship. I know I function better without taking bong hits, but, damn it can be fun, or at least interesting, and rewarding.

[samabudhi]

I've only really used marijuana by ingestion, which has slightly different effects (there doesn't seem to be that annoying anxiety all the time.)
I have gained insights with this, probably the mildest detectable psychedelic, but it's analgesic qualities have put me off. It slows down the brain and only allows awareness on what you choose to be aware of. It's like looking at the world through a telescope, you can see much finer detail, but the view is much more constricted. Since I can't really concentrate because I forget what I am trying to do, only basic meditation such as breath meditation (samatha) can work with this entheogen. One-pointed focus is what marijuana provides, but this is unfortunately not enough. I wouldn't consider this increasing your awareness, just focusing more intently on those phenomena which are aware of.

Alcohol is in a class of it's own and caffeine is simply a stimulant. Non of these can help with broadening awareness. They wear out the system and effect the homeostasis. I speak in experience of only caffeine though.

Magic mushrooms are profoundly different to marijuana.
If you closed your eyes and focused on hearing, then your awareness of sight could be said to be zero. If you kept your eyes closed but focused your attention on what you were seeing, this would be greater awareness.
If you opened your eyes and focused on hearing, greater awareness.
If you then focused on sight, even greater awareness.
My view is that we are what we perceive. Awareness of sight, awareness of memory etc. When you trip on mushrooms, that awareness of sight is heightened so much when you focus on it, that you are almost convinced that you are the action of seeing.

With marijuana, there is always a level of subject-object that remains between you and the world. With mushrooms, you become the world you view.

[Pathless]

In India there are a bunch of "holy men" called sadhus. They do all sorts of crazy things. Some of them walk around naked, sometimes they cover themselves in ash, some are known to stand in one position for long periods of time--even their entire lives! And another thing a lot of them do is smoke pot. All in the name of pursuing enlightenment. Here's a quick description of one sadhu's lifestyle.

Hehe.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Pathless

In India there are a bunch of "holy men" called sadhus. They do all sorts of crazy things. Some of them walk around naked, sometimes they cover themselves in ash, some are known to stand in one position for long periods of time--even their entire lives! And another thing a lot of them do is smoke pot. All in the name of pursuing enlightenment. Here's a quick description of one sadhu's lifestyle.

Hehe.

Marijuana has been the principle herb used religiously on the Indian sub-continent. The connections between their view on God and Self and the effects of marijuana are, in my mind, not coincidental. To making a sweeping statement, I've always associated marijuana with samatha meditation (Hindu, Jain etc) and true psychedelics with vipassana (Buddhist).
The subtleties of their effects are lost on the un-initiated. Is their no-one out there with which these ideas echoes true? It's so hard to find someone who's not a spiritual purist or a joy-seeking raver.

Peace

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Marijuana has been the principle herb used religiously on the Indian sub-continent. The connections between their view on God and Self and the effects of marijuana are, in my mind, not coincidental. To making a sweeping statement, I've always associated marijuana with samatha meditation (Hindu, Jain etc) and true psychedelics* with vipassana (Buddhist).
The subtleties of their effects are lost on the un-initiated.* Is their no-one out there with which these ideas echoes true? It's so hard to find someone who's not a spiritual purist or a joy-seeking raver.*

Peace

*emphasis mine

Samabudhi, some of your statements make you come across, to my mind, as a psilocybin elitist. It may not be your intention, but it sounds like you are marginalizing all other "spiritual" experiences to promote your opinion of what is a "true psychedelic."
As far as these "true psychedelics" being associated with Buddhist meditation, all I can say is ?? What about the Buddhist injunction to not put anything toxic in one's body? Surely a fungus that alters brain/body chemistry and has hallucinogenic qualities falls into the "toxic" category.
I'm not trying to attack you or your post, but I do think that your affection for shrooms may be skewing your perspective.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Pathless

*emphasis mine

Samabudhi, some of your statements make you come across, to my mind, as a psilocybin elitist. It may not be your intention, but it sounds like you are marginalizing all other "spiritual" experiences to promote your opinion of what is a "true psychedelic."

Kay, maybe "true" isn't the best adjective. Conventional then. My interest, at the moment, is in the connection between psychedelics and Buddhism. I have found little to link dope and Buddhism, and have not had all too many break-throughs with the drug.

As far as these "true psychedelics" being associated with Buddhist meditation, all I can say is ??

Take at look at a back issue of the Buddhist magazine, 'Tricycle' which talks about this very thing.
If you knew, and when I say knew I mean have experienced Buddhist meditation and conventional psychedelics, then you'd probably also see the connection. Psychedelics are powerful mind-altering substances that can completely change your view of the world. I am not alone in the opinion that Buddhist meditation and psychedelics have a lot in common. My personal problem is that there are so view people who have experience of this connection. I am only looking for someone to discuss this with since my position here in South Africa is fairly isolated and open-minded people are few, hence nobody wants to get involved in 'drugs'.

What about the Buddhist injunction to not put anything toxic in one's body? Surely a fungus that alters brain/body chemistry and has hallucinogenic qualities falls into the "toxic" category.

Buddhism is very cleverly linked. You wouldn't find a rule which stands by itself, as if Buddha just put it in there cause it's good for you. He said nothing about exercise for example.

Awareness it the aim of Buddhism.
This precept is to avoid taking substances which alter your awareness negatively. It's my understanding that is was developed in response to peoples use of alcohol and the subsequence lack of awareness, and harmful effects you may cause. Toxicity has little to do with it. But then, I don't consider shrooms toxic. Just a side note is the use of special herbs by Tibetans before dying, during ceremonies. I haven't been able to find out what these do, but I have my suspicions.

I'm not trying to attack you or your post, but I do think that your affection for shrooms may be skewing your perspective.

If I ever grew attached to shrooms, then I would stop out of Buddhist principle. They're just a tool.

[Pathless]

Awareness it the aim of Buddhism.
This precept is to avoid taking substances which alter your awareness negatively.

Cool. Thanks, Samabudhi, for clarifying our perspective on this. I know very little about Buddhism but am wanting to learn. Your interpretation of that precept is very helpful for me.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

i would like to explain abit about the precept concerning intoxicating substances, if i may.

marijuana, in and of itself (leaving aside the civil law), is not bad or good... we are Buddhists, remember these concepts don't really apply... it's simply a plant that has many uses.

the same goes for alcohol. it's not inherently bad and can be used for many things... so it would be incorrect to think that these are prohibited simply because they are "intoxicating".

another reason (other than what has been stated) that we are exhorted to refrain from intoxicants is that whilst we are under their influence, we may violate one of the other precepts. i should point out, however, that this is applicable only in the layperson sense. the Vinya has much more stringent rules regarding this.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Cool. Thanks, Samabudhi, for clarifying our perspective on this. I know very little about Buddhism but am wanting to learn. Your interpretation of that precept is very helpful for me.

Good good. Never accept anything just cause someone special like Buddha told you or it comes from ancient texts. This is what the Buddha was against, the ignorant acceptance of the vedas and what the Brahmins had to say about things. Always investigate for yourself, and you'll find the way. This is why they are called precepts rather than rules. Rules are enforced by others. Precepts are followed by the individual. The emphasis on personal responsibility is clear. Also, we're all on the journey alone, together we face the same thing, but ultimately alone. We all have our own religion really. No two people agree fully about everything, so when it comes to a rule or precept, it's important to see why it's there in the first place. I think this is what makes Buddhism so persuasive; it's not taking anything for granted.

Smiling from ear to ear with appreciation.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Is their no-one out there with which these ideas echoes true? It's so hard to find someone who's not a spiritual purist or a joy-seeking raver.

One of the problems is perhaps that you seek to limit the issue of psychedelics with Buddhism. Somehow that seems a little like suggesting that painters only paint landscapes, or else that there is only one useful colour in a rainbow.

The psychedelic experience can be a very powerful tool for exploring both innner and outer space. The idea that this may have usefulness for any specific spiritual discipline is hardly disagreeable.

Yet to attempt to limit the experience to a certain set of precepts and cultural terms of reference, seems to be a form of freeing from one strait-jacket, merely to seek restraint within another.

[samabudhi]

The psychedelic experience can be a very powerful tool for exploring both innner and outer space. The idea that this may have usefulness for any specific spiritual discipline is hardly disagreeable.

So besides Tim Leary and Ram Das, who is investigating the possibilities. Where are the smart people coming up with ground-breaking methods. Everything is so up in the air. Sure psychedelics are useful, but there don't seem to be any set methods for their use or meditations that have come to be accepted within the Buddhist community.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear enough in these posts.
I don't believe the potential of using psychedelics in Buddhist meditation has been fully explored yet. I don't really understand what Brian is saying in the last post, but I assure you that I am not trying to limit anything. For the purpose of investigation however, it is important to put aside, for the time being, other issues and focus on what exactly is going on with psychedelics and Vipassana. This is why I started this thread, to discuss the similarities of THESE TWO experiences.

I don't think that conventional psychedelics should only be used in Vipassana meditation, I am just saying that I recognise more similarities in them. I am not saying that marijuana should only be used in Samatha meditation, I am just saying that I recognise more similarities in them.

I am asking if anyone else shares my opinion from experience. I am interested in the details of the experience. The nitty gritty, not the politics of it all.
In these posts I have avoided going into too much detail about the similarities of these experiences since I think it would be wasted on those who have not had any experience. How profound. It's also quite boring talking about experiences you are not familiar with.

Perhaps my interest is too esoteric and not appropriate for such a general forum. It was worth a shot.

[Bhairav]

I have read that its possible Buddha might have used Marijuana seeds or leaves.
Does anyone has any information about this?