Psychedelics and Buddhism

[taijasi]

A good friend of mine who is also fairly well informed regarding Tibetan Buddhism ... once shared something with me anecdotally along these lines. He referred to a clinical study, which I have never investigated or otherwise heard of, in which (presumably Sandoz) LSD was administered to certain accomplished Tibetan monks. The monks were observed (and questioned) to see the results. And you know what difference it made to them?

None. Nothing happened.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by taijasi

A good friend of mine who is also fairly well informed regarding Tibetan Buddhism ... once shared something with me anecdotally along these lines. He referred to a clinical study, which I have never investigated or otherwise heard of, in which (presumably Sandoz) LSD was administered to certain accomplished Tibetan monks. The monks were observed (and questioned) to see the results. And you know what difference it made to them?

None. Nothing happened.

Namaste,

i would certainly be interested in reading the study results.. can those be obtained?

metta,

~v

[earl]

The story re T. Buddhists may have occurred, but may have been confused with Ram Dass' story. 30 some years ago he wrote of how he witnessed his advaita teacher take LSD & seemingly had no demonstrable effect from it. Take care, Earl

[I, Brian]

I seem to recognise the story from writings centered on Timothy Leary...

[Chela]

"Ram Dass cites an anecdotal report about his Indian guru. Allegedly, this guru did not respond to LSD on two occasions, even though he had taken very high oral doses of 900 and 1500 micrograms." Zen and the Brain, chapter 100, p. 419. (cites: Ram Dass. Lecture at the maryland Psychiatric Research Center, pt. 1 Journal of Transpersonal Psychology 1973; 5:75-103)


Interestingly, those who have an awakened consciousness do not hallucinate through these drugs because the hallucinations are caused by the subjective, dreaming, ego (sleeping consciousness)!

Therefore, awaken!

[Bhairav]

What do you think of this?
http://www.mandalar.com/Poster/Ps2index.html
Is it considdered "blasphemous"?

[jiii]

I took psilocybin mushrooms once, at the time under the impression that they would provide 'an extended weed-high'. Wow...I was wrong. The 'bad trip' that ensued left me terrified as I felt, very inescapably, that I or 'me' did not exist in any definite way for a good five hours. I could even feel myself, as the drugs' grasp began to weaken, jumping 'in' and 'out' of the 'egoless' experience as though I were going between two distinctly seperate worlds.

All around, it was horrifying. I had known nothing about Buddhism or ideas of 'no self' and the such, and had no way of making sense of the realizations I had come to in my state of near catatonia. Was it just insanity? This haunted me unrelentingly. In the months that followed, I was incredibly anxious and depressed, not understanding the experiences I had had. I had an inavoidable realization at the peak of my 'trip' during which I realized that 'I was wrong about everything'. I had, up till then, carried a vast palate of stubborn preconceptions and ideas about religion, life, death, politics, humanity, etc, etc, and I now felt, all too clearly, the shaky foundation on which I had been living my life and understanding myself and others. As a last resort, at the time, I turned to Buddhism for some answers. It eased me at that moment, and even after my traumatic aftershock began to fade months later, my interest and deep curiosity of Eastern thought did not. I kept on reading various texts of Buddhism, and after some time began reading on the topic of Zen, and then Taoism. What was originally used as a life-line ditched its facade of seriousness and became an investigation into a quite wondrous realm of thought and exploration.

Today, I look back totally aware that...well...mushrooms changed my life. I do not share the experience with many people because it is definitely something of a taboo in our culture. It is even more of a taboo to admit that a psychadelic experience had an undeniable effect of spiritual growth upon my life in an innumerable number of ways.

Was it a great idea to take mushrooms?...probably not...but I wouldn't change a thing looking back. Too bad these experiences (hopefully not in those of the terrifiying variety) aren't available without the paranoia that comes from United States sumptuary laws.

I don't think I'll ever do mushrooms again, but I can say that in a certain way, my experience with them never ended. The kind of unspeakable things I realized during those five horrific hours have blossomed years later into an equally unspeakable, but certainly less terrifying, wonder of life, existence, and conciousness.

[jiii]

In terms of 'usefulness' of psychadelics with things such as meditation, I would say that they do have some, but that far too little is being said by just that.

I think it was Timothy Leary (but maybe Watts or Huxley) that very wisely suggested that psychadelics may, in a scientific way of putting it, 'unlock' or blaze new neural pathways in the brain that have been left all but dormant after years of relatively conditioned living. In my case, it seems that this may hold some water...but it is, nonetheless, completely theoretical.

The fact is, many people that may fancy themselves very 'awakened' or what have you may have some very nasty experiences on these drugs and sometimes come out with nothing more than a pretty traumatic psychological incident...something that nobody needs to carry around.

On yet another perspective, most of the other folks I took mushrooms with during the incident mentioned in the previous posting enjoyed the experience altogether (minus my freaking them out ). While I was 'tweaking' on the other floor of the apartment, they were tantalized by the hallucinations and strange feelings. When I spoke to them long afterwards, they couldn't relate to me anything in the remotest way spiritual resulting from the experience. That is, as far as they were concerned.

Psychadelics are a very personal type of drug that, in my opinion, have somewhat unpredictable effects depending on the user: the users past experiences, the users general attitude at the time, the users general mindset, religious beliefs, and the situation of family, friends, etc.

Maybe they are useful, maybe not. I do think that Leary's idea might make some sense and, of course, I can't say that my experience doesn't seem to show something similar.

At any rate, I think Alan Watts (who wrote The Joyous Cosmology on the topic of psychadelics and mystical experience) hit the nail on the head when he said, speaking in terms of LSD, in this case:

"My retrospective attitude to LSD is that when one has received the message, one hangs up the phone. I think I have learned from it as much as I can, and, for my own sake, would not be sorry if I could never use it again. But it is not, I believe, generally known that very many of those who had constructive experiences with LSD, or other psychedelics, have turned from drugs to spiritual disciplines—abandoning their water-wings and learning to swim. Without the catalytic experience of the drug they might never have come to this point, and thus my feeling about psychedelic chemicals, as about most other drugs (despite the vague sense of the word), is that they should serve as medicine rather than diet."

[Vajradhara]

there is a reason why traditional shaman cultures restrict access to the Herbs of the Gods to beings which have undergone sufficent training


metta,

~v

[DynoMight]

Johns Hopkins University just completed a study on the mystical inducing effects of psilocybin (the active ingredient in "psychedelic" or "magic" mushrooms). The results show that psilocybin does in fact genuine mystical experience. A review of this medical study can be found here:

Johns Hopkins Gazette | July 24, 2006

This is a very recent study. It was completed and published only in 2006.

[Blizzardry]

It is said that Buddha ate only hemp seeds while attaining enlightenment. In India. Indian hemp is cannabis sativa is it not? The seeds grow inside the sticky resinous psychoactive flower-tops, do they not? Cannabis causes an introspective psyche-manifesting experience where you are likely to meet and greet gods, demons and angels, similar to the mental journey of the Buddha as he woke up to himself and his reality.

Ok, so it's just a thought.

About psychedelics causing a dullness of lucidity? I had similar experiences until I realised about keeping my head up in the storm, then I began using psychedelic experience to challenge my lucidity as an athlete uses temporary weights to train. Trying to just let it flow as the storm of guilt, bad karma and sin hit your mind in the form of demons, bad memories and physical sickness is difficult, but the satisfaction of nodding at them non-commitally as they wear themselves out and eventually die is, well, heaven...

And those realisation points where you realise all is just a dream, so any self and external self is still self, and nirvana flows on behind it all and through it all, and none of it is really real and yet highly personal is just magic. Sometimes psychedelics give us the glimpse of what to try to keep going when we're straight.

That's just my own experience, but before psychedelics, the Dharma was just words. After psychedelics, I understood all the words. After more psychedelics, I didn't need them anymore. (Not really, I still like to read good catchphrases from time to time to get me back there when I'm feeling bad )

[Blizzardry]

Just on drugs, by the way (). When I was younger I didn't understand what chi meant. I tried yoga breathing and tantra and didn't feel anything. Then one day at work (making coffees) I made myself a triple-shot espresso. I yawned. Suddenly, I felt a shiver up my spine and I could feel all the energy flowing round my body and realised that all the time I'd been feeling it all my life. I tried some simple made-up-on-the-spot breathing and stretching exercises, trying hard not to shake and chatter but rather direct the energy in a straight line from the earth to the sky and suddenly I felt lifted up and filled with focussed awareness.

Caffeine has been a good friend to me in actually being able to feel the energy. Next time you feel a shiver going up your spine, try getting it to go down your left arm, your right arm, and up through your head. Try inducing them with yawning.

Doing this gave me a real insight into concepts like kundalini yoga, tai chi, and is a lot more constructive than artificially inducing energy with coffee and just letting the excess energy shake round your body instead of directing it into physical realms on your body and into externally by connecting earth and sky with your hollow body rushing through with the fountain of life...

[Francis king]

well, I'm finding this all very interesting and amusing...

during my formative years I ingested a lot of psilocybin mushrooms, and would take approximately 500 per trip, and at my worst was ingesting such every 12 hours for a whole two weeks... anyone with any sense can realise that is too many, and for too prolonged a period, but I wanted to get further each time, expand and explore my mind, and eventually I would get some visual effects, strobing, etc, but I never seemed to get to that place all my friends got to after 50... for me, taking mushrooms and LSD (again, I would take double what everyone else did) was a bit of a waste of time, as the only real effect for me was losing the ability/desire to communicate orally. For me, taking LSD was like becoming something more than what I was in real time- then, like now, I would sit and watch ppl and analyse them, but using acid meant I could see the joins in their characters, could see how all the little influences in their life had created them, understood that mannerism A was borrowed from their father, how inflection B was their grandmothers, etc. I did not "think" this, it simply occured. However, I would/could not communicate this to them, as I had lost the desire/ability to speak. I could though, I noticed, step into the hallucinations of others, and if a friend was having a bad trip I could experience what they themselves were experiencing, something which freaked us out, but which was useful. I also realised that I did not need to speak with ppl using my mouth as I could think at them, and they could pick up on my thoughts. At the time, I did not realise what was happening was that, by some fluke of nature, I could become still, and clear seeing, with the aid of this substance, and instead of being tortured by phantasms, my mind would become very sharp and very clear. Around the same time, I was becoming interested in buddhism, and would do samatha meditation from time to time while tripping, and could sit for a few hours simply not thinking about anything. No hallucinations, no thoughts, just sitting, and being happy to sit, without the sensation of happiness, without noticing that my bum was feeling a bit stiff, without being bothered that Steve had thrown up on the carpet and Dave had his head in the sugar bowl. A great peace would decend, and I would feel empty, but a good empty, not a lack of things leading to misery, but a clean kind of empty. Only twice did I have "proper" hallucinations, one when the world before me cracked, like a shattered window, and fell apart, and I was left staring into blackness, which didn't last long, and a second occasion where everything was covered in translucent neon flowers. Only once did I have a bad trip, and in truth, it wasn't a bad trip, but I was coming down, and turned on the tv, and there was a news report about a murdered child, which depressed me to the extent I seriously thought of killing myself, but apart from that, acid never did me any harm. I am not now a regular user of such substances, and nor do I advocate behaving in the same way as I once did.

The flip side is... ppl do have bad trips. Yes, u can use psychoactive substances to activate ur psyche, but u can also inadvertently activate psychosis too, and while this psychosis is usually transient, for some ppl it becomes more serious than that.

I should also add that during my acid phase I started hearing voices, and my doctors thought I was a schizophrenic, and his diagnosis was made on the basis that I had consumed a lot of acid in the preceeding years. I still hear voices today too, but before u all picture me as the posterchild for ur antidrugs campaigns, I have to add that I've never taken medication to rid myself of these voices, I've never been in a hospital because of it, I have never had any other type of delusion (although I sometimes think I'm clever) and I have a normal life, of work and bill paying, which isn't the usual story with such a diagnosis. So, I'm a bit of a freak all round, really...

as a rational adult, and one who professes to be a buddhist, I cannot advocate the use of hallucinogenics combined with buddhist practise, and I would suggest that if any practise should be done at this time, it should only be samatha, not tantric visualisations, or the cemetery contemplations, as in both cases u can mess about with ur own head...

[Blizzardry]

Did anyone actually do psychedelics and Buddhism at the same time? I mean it's one thing to take the stuff, be blown away and catch onto Buddhism to help guide you through your new life ("Don't Panic!" - The Guide) but if you actually sit down with your meditation practise and a decent dose of psychedelic drugs, it's a totally different experience.

I mean, you might be tormented by Devaputra Mara or other demons in the beginning, but it's not like it's never happened to a Buddhist before...

I guess the choice is to read the words and get on with your life as a good person, letting enlightenment happen to you naturally, or you can take the short-cuts and risk the demons. It's not like this stuff isn't written down