Psychedelics and Buddhism

samabudhi · 02-13-2004, 06:50 PM

I see no-one has yet mentioned the use of psychedelics in these forums.
Perhaps it's become a taboo subject, but I'd like to know, if you have any experience or not, your position on psychedelics and spirituality, particularly Tantric Buddhism.
I'm particularly speaking to Vajradhara here.

Psychedelics and other drugs have played a major role in cultures of ancient peoples particularly in the Americas. The Aztec's use of mushrooms and mescaline in particular.
The Fly Agaric was used by the vedic culture in the Iranian area.
The hippie movement was also a notable case where drugs brought Westerners into an exodus in search of Eastern wisdom.

What are your views on psychedelics? Helpful ally or harmful foe?

I, Brian · 02-13-2004, 07:30 PM

Been meaning to bring this subject up before now - nothing at all taboo about it.

I'm not sure if I can engage it in a specific frame of reference to Buddhism and Eastern Thought, though. Perhaps I should open something different elsewhere to focus on different aspects? Hm...

samabudhi · 02-13-2004, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Been meaning to bring this subject up before now - nothing at all taboo about it.

I'm not sure if I can engage it in a specific frame of reference to Buddhism and Eastern Thought, though. Perhaps I should open something different elsewhere to focus on different aspects? Hm...

Doesn't need to be Eastern only.

They think, or should I say, I heard, that the Christian Saint Anthony who was credited as the founder of Christian Monasticism used to eat barley bread which was infected with the fungus ergot. For those of you who don't know, ergot is where LSD is derived from.

All for now.

Vajradhara · 02-13-2004, 09:59 PM

Namaste all,

yes.. i do have experience with various psychoactive substances.. for those that know... i am something of a psyconaught

this is an interesting question, to be sure. without doubt there are aboriginal peoples that utilize various plants and so forth in their rituals.. and many of these are still being discovered... to wit the relatively recent discovery of Salvia Divinorum as used by the Mazatec Indians of Oaxaca, Mexico. i'll leave aside many of the boring details of this research... but it's quite fascinating for those that are interested in such things. For some time the active ingredient in Salvia divinorum remained unknown. Because it bore no resemblance to any other known entheogen, researchers were baffled. However, thanks to many years of dedicated underground research, the primary active ingredient of Salvia divinorum has now been identified as salvinorin A (C23H28O8) —the most potent naturally-occurring psychedelic ever discovered, being active in doses as small as 100-200 micrograms. This is only a slightly higher dose than is required for LSD-25, which is considered to be one of the most potent psychoactive chemicals known. LSD-25 is a man-made indole.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/salvia/salvia.shtml

There is a great book called Plants of the Gods that does a very good job of talking about and listing the various psycoactive plants and their indoles.

i suppose it should be said that illegal substance use is never condoned on this website. this is for informational purposes only.

as a generalized statement i would say this... psycoactive substance use does not, necessarily, inhibit one's spiritual journey and can accelerate it if used properly. this is a key point, in my opinion. too often today the use of intoxicants is not to "expand" the mind or concsiousness, rather, it is used as an escape mechanism or as a means of "dulling" the pain of everyday life.

the main issue and really the disconnect that one sees in how modern humans use ancient plants is that for the aboriginal shaman, who was typically the only person in the tribe that took the substance, it was a religious experience and for the modern person, it is recreational.

this difference produces a vastly different experience between these two individuals. according to Choygam Trungpa, the major issue with intoxicants is two fold.. 1, that by using an intoxicant we may violate the 5 precepts, and 2, we become attached to our experience of enlightenment and no longer seek it in the now, instead, relying upon our memories of the experience. in my opinion, the latter is worse than the former. to use such a substance for actual spiritual growth, one must be very familiar with the effects of the substance and, not to put too fine a point on it, be mentally stable.

as has been briefly touched on in a previous post, Tantric Buddhism employs all aspects of the human psyche as means for liberation, as such, there is some resonance within the Secret Mantra system for use of these substances, in my opinion. perhaps, i'll be able to expound on this a bit further in my posting in the Tantra thread.

it should also be said that people are quite different and what may work for me may not work for you and vice versa. it is difficult to make a blanket statement in this regard, not least of which, because we are discussing things that, for the most part, are illegal. this poses it's own problems to the serious practiconer, in my opinion.

Pathless · 02-13-2004, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

too often today the use of intoxicants is not to "expand" the mind or concsiousness, rather, it is used as an escape mechanism or as a means of "dulling" the pain of everyday life.

Bling bling! I'm so glad you said that. It is a point that cannot be emphasized enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

There is a great book called Plants of the Gods that does a very good job of talking about and listing the various psycoactive plants and their indoles.

Is it Plants of the Gods or Food of the Gods, by Terence McKenna? As you may know, McKenna was a juggernaut in the realm of advocacy of psychedelic or entheogenic substances, a Timothy Leary figure of the 90's. He had a soapbox for a certain crazy substance called DMT, and part of the reason I bring that up is because Vajradhara mentions salvia divinorum as being "the most potent naturally-occuring psychadelic ever discovered," which was a title that I thought DMT had claimed. Perhaps, though, DMT is considered synthetic because it has to be extracted from a plant and refined before being of any "use," if I remember correctly. I'm not sure, it's been a while since I've been interested in such things.

Great topic, though. Thanks for starting the thread, Samabhudi. I will be watching it with interest.

Vajradhara · 02-14-2004, 02:02 AM

Namaste pathless,

thank you for the post.

i whole heartedly agree.

these plants and rituals played a vital role in the aboriginal societies in which they were used. futher, rituals of many sorts were employed that denoted to the tribe when a person had come of age. the entering into the shaman path wasn't something undertaken lightly as a weekend experiment, for instance. it was undertaken after one had spent many years training, in the afore-mentioned tribe the age to enter the shaman path is 30.

someone's knocking at the door... i think the neighbor has a computer virus

samabudhi · 02-14-2004, 03:06 PM

In my own experience with psychedelics, I have found them to be very helpful. In the beginning of my experiments, things started to go a bit overboard, and I thought I was going insane. I started meditating and everything was put back in place. I think if I'd continued to trip without meditation, I would have ended up in a very bad place. An asylum for instance.

Most recently, I consumed 3-4g of dried hallucinogenic mushrooms. I was up in the mountains (I spent the night there). It was great. I got through so much. I applied Vipassana meditation while I was tripping and found that I could detect the onset of a thought. I noticed when a thought arrived, when it left, why it occured (what had brought the thought into being). I have never had such lucidity with regard to my own thoughts.

For those of you who don't know: Vipassana is the meditation devised by the Buddha which focuses on awareness of the body, feelings, thoughts and dharma.

I find it much more easy to return to the awareness of thoughts which I had, now that I know what the rises and falling of thoughts actually looks like. Before, I was only concerned with the awareness of body.
Awareness of thoughts requires greater concentration and sensitivity.

Personally, I think that samatha meditation is important to ground oneself before and after tripping, and vipassana meditation is important to train the mind to be equanimous.

The problem with tripping is that one gets washed away by sensations and emotions like a ship in a hurricane. Vipassana meditation trains the mind to remain calm in the face of such chaos.
I think this is particularly important. We need some sort of security, especially when the ego, the very fibre of being which we cling to, is under attack.

I think that eventually, I won't need psychedelics to help me in my meditation; that eventually I'll be able to dive to the depths of my mind without chemical help. Psychedelics simply show me the path that I could take.

I've read lots of information about LSD being used for psychotherapy, and with marvellous results.

As for the dangers of psychedelics. They are real.
The 2 most important things when tripping are 1. Set (state of mind) and 2. Setting (environment).
If you have serious psychological issues, you're going to hit them hard when you trip. There's no hiding. This is why I think Buddhist meditation is so much better, but non-the-less slower. It provides a safe way to deal with psychological problems slower and one by one.
Tripping can overpower you with too much, hence a bad trip.

For people who've got themselves fairly well sorted however, I think psychedelics can be invaluable in making speedy progress into the realms of the psyche and ultimate reality.

As with Tantra, psychedelics deserve respect. Not abolishon and guil-tripping (scuse the pun). People who try drugs without the necessary support and information are far more likely to de-rail, and I've seen cases.

So much to say, so little time.

Be careful!

Susma Rio Sep · 02-14-2004, 03:59 PM

About Tantra, I seem to remember reading many years back in my college days something about Tantric enthusiasts who would squeeze their penis in orgasm to force the semen to return to where it comes from -- the testicles? And that exercise was supposed to procure mystical ecstacy or I can'r recall now what purpose. Perhaps it was some other guys doing that routine, not Tantric enthusiasts. Can't recall now exactly. My point here? Tell me more about this practice and also my errors of memory. No, I never tried that, and I don't have any curiosity to do so. I think it's pure stupidity.

About psychedelic substances, no, I have never ingested any that I know of. Once a friend doctor of the family told me when I was very young then that paregoric could stop loose bowel movement. Being a curious guy I went to the drugstore and asked for paregoric. The druggist told me they didn't have it. Now I know they have it but to save time and trouble he just gave me the most convenient answer; anyway I had to present a doc's prescription for that substance.

I have been under full general anaesthesia two times so far in my lifetime. I guess that does not qualify for psychedelic experience, for I did not experience anything. But I have the inkling that if anyone wants to know what is death, being under full general anaesthesia is death, a transient one though. For that matter, deep dreamless sleep is also transient death, and also being in a coma or in a fainting spell.

What is my impression of psychedelic and similar substances? They seem to be highly recommended by some people, awfully damned by others, specially the official guardians of society. What I do know for a fact is that people who do ingest such substances have not produced anything useful to mankind in the way of an economic or political theory, or a sure way to abolish wars among peoples and nations, or to arrive at the solutions of longstanding mathematical problems. Not one has ever invented any gadget that is useful in the office or at home. So my conclusion is that they are useless substances, and from people who got addicted and have become zombies, they are very baneful to the proper use of our mind and our liberty.

Susma Rio Sep

Kaldayen · 02-14-2004, 04:08 PM

Dear Samabudhi

I don't want to be moralizing but here are my 2¢...
What help could you have gotten if it had turned wrong on the top of the mountain? I think the solitude needed for meditations (most of them) is difficult to mix with the proximity of others I would try to get while using intoxicants.

I do agree that the use of such substances can really help to connect with... the spiritual. But dying prematurely is not a privileged way to "connect"!

Even the most experienced swimmer can still drown so.. one is never too cautious.

That said, if one can find a way to set his mind in a proper setting while having access to help easily... it's up to him to decide if he wants to use drugs or not.

Personnaly, I don't use them anymore for the sole reason that my body reminds me everytime that he really doesn't like them...

Blessings to you,
Kal

samabudhi · 02-15-2004, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

About Tantra, I seem to remember reading many years back in my college days something about Tantric enthusiasts who would squeeze their penis in orgasm to force the semen to return to where it comes from -- the testicles? And that exercise was supposed to procure mystical ecstacy or I can'r recall now what purpose. Perhaps it was some other guys doing that routine, not Tantric enthusiasts. Can't recall now exactly. My point here? Tell me more about this practice and also my errors of memory. No, I never tried that, and I don't have any curiosity to do so. I think it's pure stupidity.

About psychedelic substances, no, I have never ingested any that I know of. Once a friend doctor of the family told me when I was very young then that paregoric could stop loose bowel movement. Being a curious guy I went to the drugstore and asked for paregoric. The druggist told me they didn't have it. Now I know they have it but to save time and trouble he just gave me the most convenient answer; anyway I had to present a doc's prescription for that substance.

I have been under full general anaesthesia two times so far in my lifetime. I guess that does not qualify for psychedelic experience, for I did not experience anything. But I have the inkling that if anyone wants to know what is death, being under full general anaesthesia is death, a transient one though. For that matter, deep dreamless sleep is also transient death, and also being in a coma or in a fainting spell.

What is my impression of psychedelic and similar substances? They seem to be highly recommended by some people, awfully damned by others, specially the official guardians of society. What I do know for a fact is that people who do ingest such substances have not produced anything useful to mankind in the way of an economic or political theory, or a sure way to abolish wars among peoples and nations, or to arrive at the solutions of longstanding mathematical problems. Not one has ever invented any gadget that is useful in the office or at home. So my conclusion is that they are useless substances, and from people who got addicted and have become zombies, they are very baneful to the proper use of our mind and our liberty.

Susma Rio Sep

Once you've ejaculated, it's game over. The idea is to have such control that you won't ejaculate. I don't believe there's anything special or 'magical' about semen. It's the energy released when you ejaculate. Trying to push it back up will probably just cause damage.
Wrong thread anyway.

Psychedelics. Yes. Well.

As a matter of interest, there have been miraculous accounts of mental progress made while under the influence of psychedelics.
One such incident involved a man who attempted to learn German while under the influence of LSD. Within 1 or 2 weeks he had progressed far further than anyone might imagine. The story can be found amoungst others in an article on LSD and the effects on language functioning at http://www.psychedelic-library.org.

The value in psychedelics, apart from the possibilities hinted in such stories, lie mainly in their ability to provide the individual with a unique view on life which they never had before.

The mystical experience, which can be entered with large doses or psychedelics (not stimulants like ectasy or analgesics like herion), is an entirely different discussion.
The benefits I am talking about, are to do with breaking down of inhibitive mental constructs which the individual places on themselves during the course of traumatic experiences, social conditioning and the like.

The reason they are unpopular with governments is because they allow the individual to think in an entirely different way to that which they have been conditioned to think.
My opinion on the school system is that it is heavily flawed in it's approach. We are taught to think like a parrot. The government requires it. Culture requires it. What would happen if everybody realised that DKNY was just a big sham. The entire illusion that Dork New York tries to place on the unassuming youth would be knocked off.
It's easy enough to see the illusion rationally, but to actually realise it and the implications of having the hood pulled over your eyes are enough to make one rebel.

Governments just want citizens to go along with there way of life. It takes something like a war to wake people up to the injustices that are being commited. Never mind the fact that American's consume far more resources than they need to at the expense of the rest of the world.
I was up in Durban, South Africa the other month, and I met an American in a youth hostel. He was eating some KFC and I was eyeing it eagerly. He didn't notice ofcourse. We were going to go to the beach in his car, so I went to my room thinking, 'I wonder what he'll do with his chicken?'. When I came back to the lounge, he had gone back to his room, and I looked around for the chicken.
Sure enough, just as I expected, he had chucked a whole perfectly good piece of chicken in the bin (in it's wrapping).

I grabbed the chicken and when he returned, we went to his car.
We got in, and only then did he notice that I was eating his thrown-away chicken. He was horrified, so I explained to him that in South Africa, we don't just through away food, especially KFC. People will kill for that food. No jokes.

It was ironic because he later talked to me about the differences between different religions' rules on food (vegetarian Hindus, kosher Jews). He explained that Christianity's effort was to avoid gluttony. I nearly fell over backward. After all that happened!

Anyway. One could see he had been emotionally scarred, so I didn't take him too seriously.

I don't expect anyone will make any decent inventions while tripping.
Psychedelics aren't about adding intellectual capacity, if anything, they reduce it (for the period of the trip).
They do, however, open a gate when it comes to aethetics: music, art, poetry.

Aldous Huxley didn't call it 'The Doors of Conception'.

samabudhi · 02-15-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaldayen

Dear Samabudhi

I don't want to be moralizing but here are my 2¢...
What help could you have gotten if it had turned wrong on the top of the mountain? I think the solitude needed for meditations (most of them) is difficult to mix with the proximity of others I would try to get while using intoxicants.

I do agree that the use of such substances can really help to connect with... the spiritual. But dying prematurely is not a privileged way to "connect"!

Even the most experienced swimmer can still drown so.. one is never too cautious.

That said, if one can find a way to set his mind in a proper setting while having access to help easily... it's up to him to decide if he wants to use drugs or not.

Personnaly, I don't use them anymore for the sole reason that my body reminds me everytime that he really doesn't like them...

Blessings to you,
Kal

Things more often go wrong when other people are involved. I've never had such an enjoyable, and peaceful trip as the one in the forest.
All that needs to be right is the weather, and I was prepared for the worst anyway.
In examining my thoughts and my mind, music and people just become a distraction.

Dying prematurely is actually a technique used by Tantra, and I think it has great merits.

I assume that the reason you don't like to use psychedelics anymore is because of the emotional turmoil that you have to go through. Having to confront your anxieties for hours can be overwhelming if you're used to marginalising them.

Enter Buddhism.

Buddhist meditation techniques teach how not to marginalise aspects of the mind we don't want to handle.
Psychedelics don't add anything to the mind, they simply break down the barriers which we form to allow for rational thinking.

If you learn to accept everything that the mind shows you, you can overcome those anxieties and be happy.

I have to go (Internet credits), but there is much more to discuss on this point.

Cheers

Kaldayen · 02-16-2004, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samabudhi

I assume that the reason you don't like to use psychedelics anymore is because of the emotional turmoil that you have to go through.

Hm.. I was actually refering to the fact that my heartbeat doubles its speed ... that can't be a good thing... One could argue that I should be able to control that with my mind, but my mind works much better without drug so I don't see the point

Quote:

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Psychedelics don't add anything to the mind, they simply break down the barriers which we form to allow for rational thinking.

To me, they had an obstacle to my lucidity (not rationality) since I have to work to control its effect on my body.

And well.. I'll leave the "dying prematurely" to the tantrists. I rather stay alive

Kal

samabudhi · 02-17-2004, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaldayen

Hm.. I was actually refering to the fact that my heartbeat doubles its speed ... that can't be a good thing... One could argue that I should be able to control that with my mind, but my mind works much better without drug so I don't see the point

That's interesting, since the aim of exercise is to do exactly that.

I know of 1 incident where someone has died from too much magic mushrooms. He took 30g. This is way over the standard 2g.

Acid is notoriously difficult to O.D. on.
I hear the LD50 is 600 times the active dose.

It is well known that the danger in psychedelics is what one's actions might be under their influence, not their immediate effect on the body.

Quote:

To me, they had an obstacle to my lucidity (not rationality) since I have to work to control its effect on my body.

Body or mind? If you're trying to control their effects, then you're heading one way. You can't control a trip. You can only prepare yourself.
Set and setting. That's my motto.

Quote:

And well.. I'll leave the "dying prematurely" to the tantrists. I rather stay alive

You're going to go eventually. Why not try it and live to tell the tale. It gives you a new-found attitude and appreciation for life. Plus you're not living in fear of something that is unavoidable.

I, Brian · 02-17-2004, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samabudhi

The reason they are unpopular with governments is because they allow the individual to think in an entirely different way to that which they have been conditioned to think.

Probably more to do with the issue of responsibility - it is very difficult to conceptualise everyday reality while tripping, and thus your responsibilities to it. For example, crossing the road safely when you can't even judge the speed of the vehicles heading towards you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samabudhi

I assume that the reason you don't like to use psychedelics anymore is because of the emotional turmoil that you have to go through. Having to confront your anxieties for hours can be overwhelming if you're used to marginalising them.

It's always great to explore new landscapes, but eventually you end up walking the same paths. There is no longer that sense of discovery, as much as treading old ground. The purpose of the experience then becomes somewhat muted.

Btw, samabudhi - what sort of magic mushrooms are you referring to? You should make that clear before making sweeping generalisations of what weights and measurements to take. Here in the UK, for example, we have two main species: Psilocybin and Fly Agaric. You certainly need to be far more cautious of the Agaric. Psilocybes here are usually measured in number, rather than weight (which I preusme is dry).

Kaldayen · 02-18-2004, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samabudhi

You're going to go eventually. Why not try it and live to tell the tale. It gives you a new-found attitude and appreciation for life. Plus you're not living in fear of something that is unavoidable.

Well ... that's a way of seeing it..
Personnaly, I don't fear death, I know it's unavoidable, but I love life too much to tempt faith like that. You may need that challenge to appreciate life at its maximum but I, and many others I think, don't.

Kal