Public Prayer

[wil]

Yes I know this is politics and society. (note this is US)

But I thought we could discuss the thought of politics and religion and the concern we often have with our Presidents and their religious beliefs and references to G!d.

How about this one, two notes, lots of references to G!D, no references to Christianity or Jesus.

Whereas a joint Committee of both Houses of Congress has waited on the president of the United States, and requested him to "recommend a day of public humiliation , prayer and fasting, to be observed by the people of the United States with religious solemnities, and the offering of fervent supplications to Almighty God for the safety and welfare of these states, His blessings on their arms, and a speedy restoration of peace":
And whereas it is fit and becoming in all people, at all times, to acknowledge and revere the Supreme Government of God; to bow in humble submission to His chastisements; to confess and deplore their sins and transgressions in the full conviction that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; and to pray, with all fervency and contrition, for the pardon of their past offenses, and for a blessing upon their present and prospective action:
And Whereas, when our own beloved Country, once, by the blessing of God, united, prosperous and happy, is now afflicted with faction and civil war, it is peculiarly fit for us to recognize the hand of God in this terrible visitation, and in sorrowful remembrance of our own faults and crimes as a nation and as individuals, to humble ourselves before Him and to pray for His mercy, - to pray that we may be spared farther punishment, though most justly deserved; that our army may be blessed and be made effectual for the reestablishment of law, order, and peace, throughout the wide extent of our country; and the inestimable boon of civil and religious liberty, earned under His guidance and blessing, by the labors and sufferings of our fathers, may be restored in all its original excellence-
Therefore, I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, do appoint the last Thursday in September next, as a day of humiliation, prayer and fasting for all the people of the nation. And I do earnestly recommend to all the people, and especially to all ministers and teachers of religion of all denominations, and to all heads of families, to observe and keep that day according to their several creeds and modes of worship, in all humility and with all religious solemnity, to the end that the united prayer of the nation may ascend to the Throne of Grace, and bring down plentiful blessings upon our Country

President Abraham Lincoln's proclamation of a national day of prayer during the civil war.

[Paladin]

it is peculiarly fit for us to recognize the hand of God in this terrible visitation, and in sorrowful remembrance of our own faults and crimes as a nation and as individuals, to humble ourselves before Him and to pray for His mercy, - to pray that we may be spared farther punishment, though most justly deserved; that our army may be blessed and be made effectual for the reestablishment of law, order, and peace, throughout the wide extent of our country; and the inestimable boon of civil and religious liberty, earned under His guidance and blessing, by the labors and sufferings of our fathers, may be restored in all its original excellence-


Aside from a president mentioning things like God, blessing, and prayer, in order to communicate to the people as a whole, I think this particular paragraph indicates a preference for a certain brand of Christianity.
For the same reason that Pascal's Wager doesn't work across the board because it outlines a specific view of reward/punishment that underpins most popular Christian thought, so does this plea from an otherwise brillian politican not work.

I wonder if more attention were given the real man made reasons behind war and economic trials instead of blaming it on an invisible God, would we be a bit farther along in finding resolution?

Now I'm not denigrating the thought behind these words, but when will government stop using the level of magical thinking to control the "...beasts in the shape of men?" Unfortunately there are a very large number of people who subscribe to this level of thought and are so very easily manipulated into buying whatever the politicans have to sell.

[wil]

Namaste Paladin,

You are refering to us being punished for our sins associated with slavery? And that being particularly Christian thought?

[Paladin]

Is that how you read it?

Yes it is a Christian thought that we are punished by God when we do bad things.

[Paladin]

so is it your contention then in the political process that we blame our misfortunes on God and not our own hand? Was 9/11 punishment because we are a wicked nation? Come on Wil that isn't like you.

[Pathless]

In the present context of our country, we need to acknowledge at least a couple of things:

• Like Paladin said, war is not initiated by the hand of some supreme being as a punishment for our misdeeds. The current strife in the world can all be traced to human (un)civil interactions without any recourse to the magical thinking that we are being punished by an almighty deity for our sins, in order to correct our course and realign it in the ways of righteousness. True righteousness does not resort to punishment and violence as a means of correction, in my personal paradigm.
• Our nation is one of religious pluralism, whether we like it or not. Any expression of faith in public office is always at least somewhat inappropriate, as it will undoubtedly alienate some people within the country. If indeed a public official, like a president, intends to act as a spokesperson for the American people, they need to grasp the complex realities of both faith and politics, and acknowledge that we are a nation diverse in faiths and political perspectives.

President Lincoln's speech, and George W. Bush's language, do not speak to me as a Goddess-oriented Pagan Buddhist. Equally, the same Christian language will not appeal to Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Jains, Rastafarians, Zoastrians, Scientologists (sorry, can't resist), Pastafarians, Vodoun Practitioners, Atheists, Patheists, or Agnostics. I recognize that the founding of this country is deeply rooted in Christian and Puritanical traditions, yet I also realize that these traditions are no longer representative of Americans as a whole, nor have they been for a long time. Any call to fasting and/or prayer must be made in language that is inclusive of the variety of faiths found within America, if it is to be made at all.

Personally, magical thinking aside, I believe that prayer, meditation, and fasting are all powerful tools for transformation. A concerted, multi-faith spiritual effort towards peace and reconciliation can produce nothing but postive effects. I don't believe that, in America, with our entrenched "separation of church and state," it's entirely appropriate for the federal or state governments to lead an initiative like that, but this may be an area where other biases of mine come into play. Non-governmental organizations which are cognizant of the multi-faith reality of society could play roles in organizing spiritual initiatives like this.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Paladin

so is it your contention then in the political process that we blame our misfortunes on God and not our own hand? Was 9/11 punishment because we are a wicked nation? Come on Wil that isn't like you.

Namaste Pal and Path,

oh no. I was just contemplating what if a candidate was this forward with his/her beliefs today. Sure GW says some prayerful stuff and got a little religious around 9/11. But if in four paragraphs G!d, prayer and humility was offered up so many times the papers would be screaming seperation of church and state. (which doesn't exist as we know, it was only in a letter from Jefferson...not in our declaration, constitution or bill of rights.)

I was more looking at how our society has changed in 150 years, as to the religious underpinnings of us as a country and our acceptance of this type of talk from our leaders.

Path, interfaith initiative, oh how our gov't should get behind that, imo.

[Paladin]

The problem as I see it Wil is that dissent of any kind is usually shot down if the linquistics and timing are good. Shock Doctrine covers more than just economics. When the Patriot act was first dreamed up and so named the timing was perfect. It sailed through the house with no difficulty at all. Likewise, the Republicans have used timing and linquistics to push through quite a bit of bogus stuff in the last seven years.
After all who could deny the president a little lapse into religious jargon after a tragedy? We would look like McCarthy when Welch finally tied into him.

[China Cat Sunflower]

I think that a wide majority of Americans would like religion to become a private matter again.

Chris

[wil]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I think that a wide majority of Americans would like religion to become a private matter again.

Chris

Namaste Chris,

I think that may be the question. When was it?

Not 2000 years ago if a few thousand showed up to hear Jesus speak. Not in India where the river gets flooded with people. Not during the crusades a thousand years ago. Not 150 years ago when Abe put out this speech. Not when Roosevelt was making similar speeches. Not when it was a big stink that we were electing a Catholic with Kennedy or a Quaker with Nixon. Not when Clinton left the church on Sunday making sure we saw the bible in his hand as he waved to the camera.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I think that a wide majority of Americans would like religion to become a private matter again.

Chris

I understand the sentiment here Chris, perhaps a pre-William Jennings Bryan era?

[brucegdc]

The problem is, I think, that the realm of law and the realm of religion serve fundamentally the same purpose in some ways - both are trying to guide the behaviors of individuals, generally for the "greater good". So in order to show what ones views are like in the public, legal, sector, the politicians are using their religious affiliations as a proxy.... "see, I'm a devout <insert belief here> .... therefore my beliefs about the greater good of society will be thus and so". Since they're all weasels anyways (sorry to all the weasels I just insulted) and don't want to talk about substantive plans (because that then becomes something for their opponents to use...), they're using the proxy to try to convey the message that they're going to act correctly.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I understand the sentiment here Chris, perhaps a pre-William Jennings Bryan era?

Well pre Bryan was the era that the OP Abe Lincoln quote came from. Or if you mean just pre - when we had our three timing President Grover Cleveland, that son of a Presbyterian minister, the fellow elected despite fathering a child out of wedlock and openly supporting mother and child. Hard to find a major speech of his that he doesn't reference G!d Almighty leading our nations.

I just don't see a time when this country wasn't attached to G!d at the hip, if anything we are the most secular today, despite this we appreciate having someone in our top offices that has a connection to G!d, and some failings as well, just so we know their human.

We wonder about one religion or another, I'd bet an openly stated atheist would have some issues getting elected.

[Pathless]

Speaking of public prayer and spiritual revolutions, here's some hippy-dippy happy-go-lucky new age meditations on the power of spirituality:

YouTube - Andrew Harvey and Swami Chidanand Saraswati

I don't agree with everything they express, but it's kind of refreshing, in a tepid peacenik way. Yes, the power of love and forgiveness is great, but criminals, mass murderers, and public liars who abuse their positions of power need to be held accountable for their actions, not simply forgiven. I don't believe in tough love in child-rearing or even in other ordinary circumstances and relationships; I do believe in it when the people involved are major public figures who are so ignorant and arrogant that they have caused massive, widespread human suffering and fear.