Pulling out of Gaza

Awaiting_the_fifth · 08-16-2005, 10:34 PM

Just wondering what everyone's view are on this subject.

Personally I have always thought it wrong that the Israeli's annexed so much palestinian land, but now it seems wrong to turf these people out of their homes.

I suppose it's karma.

earl · 08-16-2005, 11:17 PM

Interesting you should bring this up as I was watching the bottom of the TV screen headline news ticker on CNN today. It was commenting re this and the phrases that passed across screen were: "5000 Jewish 'extremists' move into Gaza recently to protest ouster of settlers;" "Palestinian 'extremists' vow that Gaza oull-out just beginning of dismantling of Jewish state." It's always so sad, so tragic when the "extremism" of "my group is the only right one, the only 'holy' one and your group may as well not exist" is operating. Peace will never happen until people really feel that this the human "family" not a bunch of warring tribes. Bless us all, Earl

thipps · 08-17-2005, 01:27 PM

There is no trust between the two sides. And this isnt the first time israel is pulling out of Gaza, so i wont hold my breath but still will be hopeful. can't really hurt to hope.

human1111 · 08-17-2005, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Just wondering what everyone's view are on this subject.

Personally I have always thought it wrong that the Israeli's annexed so much palestinian land, but now it seems wrong to turf these people out of their homes.

I suppose it's karma.

Israel did NOT annex palestinian land. All of Israel belongs to Jewish people and as such it must not be given away. Such moves will NOT appease the terrorists and you should not reward terrorist organizations such as Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.

Awaiting_the_fifth · 08-17-2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by human1111

Israel did NOT annex palestinian land. All of Israel belongs to Jewish people and as such it must not be given away. Such moves will NOT appease the terrorists and you should not reward terrorist organizations such as Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.

Israel belongs to the Jewish people, OK (or at least that question is for another thread) but what about the West Bank and Gaza strip, are they not Palistinian land?

InLove · 08-17-2005, 06:48 PM

Hi, Peace--

I honestly think it will take the intervention of the Divine to ever settle this question. Perhaps it will come from within, as Earl suggested--but wherever we find it, I think the answer will be surprising. After all, it has gone on for so long, much longer than it so often appears.

InPeace,
InLove

earl · 08-17-2005, 07:39 PM

Issue of historical claims to land can be rather murky to say the least, (I so don't know the history re this in Middle East), and I think miss the real point anyway. But to give an example a bit closer to home for me. I grew up in the state of South Dakota in the US. That state is home to the native american people-the Lakota. Back in the 1970's they were rather peacefully advocating for return of big chunks of that state to them since the US government was in breach of treaties signed with them in the 1800's-indeed a sad chapter in US history-grabbing native lands as Euro-American settlers did, (in fact my family homesteaded in S.D in late 1800's coming from Canada-think they heard wionter weather was better down south

). However, what the Lakota tend to typically leave out of such public dialogue is their own history-they came to South Dakota from further east in the 1700's and in doing so pushed other pre-existing native tribes off the land. Prior claims, hmm? Bottom line is that if people don't make a home for each other in peace and love, no one will have a home. Take care, Earl

lunamoth · 08-17-2005, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by earl

Bottom line is that if people don't make a home for each other in peace and love, no one will have a home. Take care, Earl

Amen!

InLove · 08-17-2005, 10:11 PM

Thanks Awaiting_the_Fifth, for starting this thread. I wanted to say something, but did not know what to say. I am an "outsider" for all practical purposes, as far as this world is concerned.

But, what a subject so close to my heart! I think that is why I cry over Gaza--for both sides.

Thank you earl and lunamoth--the situations here and in Gaza are comparable in my heart, because I look for the history. History can be so revealing. But the history of that area had the fortune or misfortune of being "written" early on.

Actually, I think that written history is meant to be examined closely, but I think that we are nearly incapable of comprehending it--and a great deal of it is flawed. I mean "flawed" by when it is intentionally altered. There are also flaws in the way in which history, oral or written or whatever, is perceived.

I am trying to make sense here of something that is very difficult for me to talk about.

That never means that truth can't shine through.

All I know is that my heart cries out over the situation. Wish I could fix it.

InPeace,
InLove

bananabrain · 08-19-2005, 01:59 PM

i think israel annexed the golan and east jerusalem, but not the west bank and gaza. and, frankly, if they're not intending to leave for good, they wouldn't be putting themselves through the trauma of confronting the extreme settlers who think that they are somehow bringing the messiah by their insane actions. regardless of the fact that all previous israeli governments since 1967 have either colluded in and led the settlement enterprise, this rebellious, extreme and emotionally blackmailing behaviour of is not worthy of the aim they claim to be serving. they might be yelling "jews don't expel jews", but they should be considering also the ideas that "you must love the stranger, for you were strangers in egypt" and that we are supposed to be "a light unto the nations". we're doing a lousy job of it so far.

on the other hand, the glee of the international media and israel-bashers everywhere is sickening to see. however, this is the right thing to do, it is long overdue and it ought to be done with as much dignity as they can muster, rather than fighting amongst themselves and trying to subvert democracy and the institutions of the israeli state.

b'shalom

bananabrain

I, Brian · 08-19-2005, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the glee of the international media and israel-bashers everywhere is sickening to see.

Not sure where the glee is, but the BBC reported that the soldiers carrying out the evictions were unarmed. That seemed quite a remarkable detail to report.

Faithfulservant · 08-19-2005, 09:06 PM

I think this is one of those no-win situations. The thing about politics is that you cant keep everyone happy 100% of the time and it makes me sad that people have to lose their homes in both situations.. the homes that the Palestinians had and the homes that the Jews had... The thought also arises.. whats going to happen to the synogogues in all these towns that are being evacuated?

This quote was in my newspaper this morning

"Im standing here without any fear that the Israelis will shoot at me because their battle today is against themselves." Mohammed Bashir, a Palestinian farmer in the town of Deir al-Balah in the Gaza Strip.

It made me sad for the world to see Israel not unified together.

Wakiza · 08-20-2005, 10:08 PM

The withdrawal was a necessary move, if there is to be any dialogue for peace between the Palestinians and Jews. Without this move any hope for dialogue and peace would be futile. In the game of chess and in the game of life, sacrifice is sometimes necessary to achieve a worthy end. In this case though, the goal should be peace, not victory. Below is a quote from timesonline.co.uk, Aug 09,2005.

"Mr Sharon knows that Israeli security is ill-served by the diversion of effort to protect 8,000 Jewish settlers among 1.3 million Palestinians. To the settlers’ anguish, he is evicting them as part of a wider plan to create the conditions for dialogue. The wisest course for politicians outside the region is to cease attacking Mr Sharon for not being able to create peace by fiat."

InLove · 08-21-2005, 06:42 AM

Hi Wakiza--welcome to CR.

Peace to All here--

I have actually heard this view upheld by some people who are having to move.

Even upon their leaving, some seem to understand that there is some bigger reason for it. I cry, but they accept it. I guess their open eyes see the history.

But, as I have said before, I really cannot begin to understand the specifics of the situation--only the principles at hand. (And I suppose that I may even be a bit lacking in the particulars--not, however in the basics).

Appreciate your post--

InPeace,
InLove

Wakiza · 08-21-2005, 08:06 PM

Thank you for the welcome....just read in the news the following...I can only hope it is not true, otherwise any hope of a peace dialogue may be shipwrecked before it can start. I found this info on the Aljazeera web site. If it turns out to be false...then the Aljazeera site will have no credibility at all.

- At least 600 Jewish settlers to be evacuated from the Gaza Strip will move to a West Bank settlement, an official in the settlement said on Sunday.-

"When they appealed to us over the weekend, we were happy to give them the option of moving in," Cohen-Orgad told Israel Radio.

It was not immediately clear whether the Netzarim families would remain in the West Bank permanently, but the secretary of Netzarim official, Eliahu Ozen, implied they would, according to the Yediot Ahronot newspaper.

When asked whether they would stay in the West Bank for good, Ozen replied: "We are a community with a very strong ideological background and we would like a mission with a clear ideological purpose, so this idea is being considered."

What are people thinking? We can only hope this is not true. The West Bank is obviously going to be part of the dialogue for peace since it has been illegaly settled by the Israelis according to international law. If they allow displaced settlers to move in, then such action speaks volumes as to the real intentions of Sharon. Is he just stalling for time?..is he just using the Gaza pullout as payment for the major portion of the West Bank? I know that a few communities in the West Bank are slated for withdrawal, but to move settlers in to other areas of the west bank would seem to indicate that Israel plans to keep most of the illegally occupied territory. Even the US is starting to lose patience a bit. If there is going to be any hope at all of peace, not only in Israel, but in the whole of the Muslim world, and yes even in the West, then it ultimately depends upon the withdrawal from the occupied territories period. I know that Jerusalem itself is very problematic, but something has to be done to help stabalize the world situation. We have a clash of culture and religion, and if those of us who claim to be civilized cannot abide by the international rules of our own making, then ultimately, there is not much hope for civilization as we know it is there? Yesterday I had hope because of the withdrawal from Gaza, but now I suspect that the Israeli leader is up to his old tricks again. I don't think that most average citizens of the world realize or understand the repercussions of the Israeli's and the West of insisting on having everything our way, after having been occupiers and colonialists of most of the world at one time or another. We seem to think that everyone should think as we do, and react as we would react under certain conditions. Perhaps some cultures are more comfortable under theocracies and monarchies, while we in our "enlightened" state think that the whole world should be converted to "democracy" at the end of a gun. Sometimes I think that "democracy" is a mask for capitalism and materialism....judging by the dismantling of social programs, and the emphasis on individualism to the detriment of the concept of community here in the west. Many people in the west (and elswhere) are dancing as fast as they can, while they see the social safety net rotting beneath them due to corporate interests as they are pulling the strings of their political puppets in the so called new world order called "globalism"....a system which leaves out First Nations peoples, and many other groups, including the uneducated, the occupied, minorities and the poor worldwide....so the boardroom executives and their political pawns can be well heeled....whew....I guess I have vented my spleen today. Now I just have to wait for the knock on the door to become one of the "disappeared".