Purgatory?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Pope John Paul on December 7, 2000 when he proclaimed "Heaven is open to all as long as they are good," even for "those who ignore Christ and his Church." The December 8, Electronic Telegraph reported the Pope as saying that "Heaven is open to all as long as they are good." The Pope was also quoted as telling an audience that "all of the just on Earth, including those who ignore Christ and his Church" were "called upon to build the kingdom of God."

I never read enough or followed enough of John Paul....my mistake.

[Nick the Pilot]

Catholic Church likely to abolish state of Limbo

http://www.oxfordpress.com/business/..._1202_COX.html
(page no longer found, was posted Jan 2006)


WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — The Catholic Church is considering abolishing Limbo, a sort of shadowy fourth state of the afterlife, where the souls of unbaptized and aborted infants go, to keep company with the righteous Hebrew prophets who lived before Jesus Christ was born, the authoritative Italian newspaper, Corriere della Sera, reports.

"In limbo," a phrase that has won universal understanding in English, and which is used by everyone from priests to politicians, may soon signify "nowhere." To be in limbo will be, strictly speaking, to be utterly nonexistent.

The International Theological Commission, an arm of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is about to issue a new catechism of Catholic doctrine that does away with Limbo, the Corriere reported this week. The catechism is likely to be approved by Pope Benedict XVI, formerly Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, because as cardinal, Ratzinger was the gatekeeper of Catholic doctrine under the late Pope John Paul II.

Rabbi James Rudin, a Jewish theologian formerly serving in Boca Raton, Fla., said he would welcome the change in Catholic doctrine, if it took place, and called it a "very serious thing."

"Anytime a religious body of 1 billion people moves on the issue of the afterlife, it's very serious. This could be seen as part of an ongoing process, where the Roman Catholic faith is moving past a narrow, exclusionary view of other religions, toward a more pluralistic view.

"It means that the Catholic Church is willing to treat other religions with more respect. This may have an impact on other Christian churches," said Rudin, who serves as senior inter-religious adviser to the American Jewish Committee.

The idea of Limbo goes back to the Middle Ages and was a reaction on the part of Peter Abelard to the severe doctrine put forth by St. Augustine in the fifth century A.D., that every unbaptized soul must go to hell where, however, they would be subjected only to a mitissima poena, a very mild pain, if they had led good lives.

Abelard argued that even this light pain was too harsh a punishment for innocent unbaptized children whose only sin was that of being born with Original Sin, the legacy of the first man, Adam, and which can be washed away only by the sacrament of baptism.

Abelard said such babies should not suffer the torments of hell but only the loss of the Beatific Vision, the glorious sight of God Himself, which only the blessed may enjoy in Paradise. Therefore they should dwell in a rather foggy but painless place called Limbo, derived from the Latin word limbus, meaning "edge." To be "in limbo" was to be on the edge of happiness, suspended between delight and pain, feeling neither.

The babies would not lack for company. There was a section of Limbo called the Limbus Infantium, for children, and another called the Limbus Patrum, the Limbo of the Fathers, for Hebrew prophets. These righteous, far-seeing men merely had the misfortune to be born before Jesus Christ. Obviously, they didn't deserve hell for being born too soon. So they could stay in Limbo.

Abelard's view found favor with Innocent III (1161-1216), the most powerful pope in history, who had been a lawyer before he was elected. Innocent liked the idea of Limbo, a neat fourth drawer in the afterlife where untidy leftovers could be kept. He published a Body of Canon Law, in which he said that those in Limbo would suffer "no other pain, whether from material fire or from the worm of conscience, except the pain of being deprived forever of the vision of God."

From here onward, Limbo gradually became kinder and kinder, gentler and gentler.

St. Thomas Aquinas, the "Angelic Doctor" of the church, said in the 13th century that Limbo must be completely painless. Babies can't miss what they have never known or seen, so the deprivation of the sight of the Beatific Vision cannot hurt them. Indeed, St. Thomas said, Limbo must be a place of positive happiness, because it is so close to heaven and God.

The ecumenical Council of Florence in 1438 came close to abolishing Limbo but got sidetracked by the question of Purgatory and attempts to reunite the Greek Orthodox Church with the Rome-based Latin church.

In 1904, Pope Pius X defined Limbo in his catechism. "Babies dead without baptism go to Limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but neither do they suffer, because, having Original Sin alone, they do not deserve Paradise, but neither do they merit Hell or Purgatory."

In 1992, Pope John Paul II took another step. "The Church can do no more than trust in the mercy of God, who desires that all men be saved," says the catechism published that year, citing the biblical epistle of Timothy (I.2;4) "Who will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth."

John Paul II also cited the Gospel of St. Mark (10:14) where Jesus says: "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God."

The draft catechism goes before a board headed by William Josef Levada of the Vatican's Holy Office, which will issue its recommendations to the Pope today, the Corriere della Sera reported.

If it is adopted and ratified by "Papa Ratzi," as the Italians call him, Limbo will no longer be in Limbo. It will cease to exist altogether. Billions of babies, along with the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Ezekiel and the other great Jewish seers, will finally get into Catholic Heaven.

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

I just wanted to put in my version of Limbo. I definitely believe in Purgatory. It is an intermediary cleansing phase, between Hell and Heaven.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Hi everybody!

I just wanted to put in my version of Limbo. I definitely believe in Purgatory. It is an intermediary cleansing phase, between Hell and Heaven.

But "limbo" is not purgatory. Those in purgatory are above the age of ascention (e.g. they knew right from wrong), allegedly. Those in "limbo" knew nothing about right or wrong, because they never got a chance to develope. So why punish the innocent? I think it's about time the Church did away with that junky thinking.

v/r

Joshua

[Nick the Pilot]

Q,

You are correct to distinguish Limbo from Purgatory. I believe in both Purgatory and Limbo (I see a significant difference between the two, as you do, but not the same way as you do). I see both ideas complementing each other nicely.

[Silas]

What verses in the Bible do people get purgatory from?

[Dondi]

I Corinthians 3:11-15, for one.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I Corinthians 3:11-15, for one.

Dondi, you believe in purgatory? The verses you gave me, by the way, is dealing with the subject of a believer's motives. If his works are done in the wrong motives, it will be counted as either, straw, or wood, or hay, at the believer's judgement. Look at the verses in closely in context, you'll see that the fire tests a man's service, of what sort it is. The man is saved despite the fact that his works are consumed by the fire.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

What verses in the Bible do people get purgatory from?

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. This is because unless they are perfect they will not enter heaven because in the book of Revelation 21:27 St John Says "Nothing unclean shall enter it" (referring to heaven) .
From this alone one would clearly see that to say that pergatory doesn't exist would be foolish because Which among us, can claim to be free of selfishness, even at the moments of our deaths? this would then mean that only the perfect people enter heaven and you can imagine how few people are perfect . Few doctrines are clearer in Scripture than the necessity of absolute holiness in order to enter heaven. On this, Protestants and Catholics are in total agreement. The word purgatory is derived from the Latin purgatorio, ("cleansing," "purifying") in Hebrew its Sheol.
Purgatory is the name given to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned (hell). This is shown by St Paul who says: "But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as THROUGH FIRE." (I Corinthians 3:15) It should also be noted that the Greek word "houtos" ("yet so") in 1 Cor 3:15 is an adverb modifying the verb "sotheesetai" ("shall be saved") and points to how the man is saved, i.e., by fire This brings out the idea that Christ will someday judge the work of the Christian to determine its value, and that some Christians will suffer for their bad works done on earth but still be saved by fire. Take a look at 1 Corinthians 5:5, where Paul condemns a man living in sin with his step-mother. Paul says, "with the power of the Lord Jesus he is to be handed over to Satan, so that his sensual body may be destroyed, but his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
Also The apostle Peter Later Confirms this when he says "... so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though TESTED BY FIRE, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 1:7) Also he later says that Christ Preached to these soles that were in the captive in the underworld when he says: 1 Peter 3:19-20 ". . . he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water".
St Matthew also makes this know Matthew 5:22) "But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, "You fool!" shall be liable to the fire of Hell. Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will NEVER GET OUT TILL YOU HAVE PAID THE LAST PENNY". Here is one of our lord's parables referring to purgatory because he is the Judge you will One day stand before and he is the one who will past the sentence but here he says you Will get out of the prisons that in which you are placed but not until you have paid the last penny . What is the presumption? Once you pay the last penny, you are going to get out. Where are you going to go then? To hell? No. You paid the last penny. You're going to enter into the blessing at that point but only after you've paid the fine. {see also Luke 12:58-59} We also read in the Book of Hebrews that the apostle says: Hebrews 12:29 . . . our God is a consuming fire. Scriptures that are understood to be referring to purgatory are: Mt 5:26; 12:32; 12:36; Luke 12:47-48; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 4:18, Ecclesiasticus 24:45; 7:37, Philippians 2:10; Jude 23; Hebrews 12:22b; Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; 2 Maccabees 12:44-47; Rv 21:27. Some examples in which temporal punishment for sin is sustained in this life are: Numbers 20:1-13; 1 Chronicles 21:1-17: 2 Samuel 12:1-23; 1 Cor 11:29-30. Some examples of prayer, penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 4:19.)
The fact that Jesus warns his disciples against blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, saying it "will not be forgiven either in this world, nor in the NEXT." (Matthew 12:32) shows us that their is a forgiveness in the next life (purgatory) for some acts/omissions committed by the Christian (namely venial sins) however their are those things (such as sinning against the Holy Ghost) their is no forgiveness for either in this life or the next.
Hebrew Sheol (Greek Hades - netherworld) is not absolutely identical to purgatory (both righteous and unrighteous go there), but it is nevertheless strikingly similar. Sheol is referred to frequently throughout the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 32:22, 2 Samuel 22:6, Psalm 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8, Proverbs 9:18, 23:14, Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,15, Ezekiel 31:16-17, 32:21,27). In Jewish apocalyptic literature (in the few hundred years before Christ), the notion of divisions in Sheol is found (for instance, in Enoch 22:1-14).
The Christian hell is equivalent to the New Testament Gehenna or Lake Of Fire. Gehenna was literally the burning ash-heap outside Jerusalem, and was used as the name for hell by Christ (Matthew 5:22,29-30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33, Mark 9:43,45,47, Luke 12:5 - cf. James 3:6). Lake of fire occurs only in Revelation as a chilling description of the horrors of hell into which the damned would be thrown (Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15, 21:8).
Philippians 2:10-11 / Revelation 5:3,13 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. If God refuses to receive prayer, praise and worship from the unrepentant sinner (as shown in :Psalm 66:18, Proverbs 1:28-30, Isaiah 1:15, 59:2, Jeremiah 6:20, Amos 5:21-24, Micah 3:4, Malachi 1:10, John 9:31, Hebrews 10:38), why would He permit the damned to undertake this practice? Furthermore, if God does not compel human beings to follow Him and to enjoy His presence for eternity contrary to their free will, then it seems that He would not - as far as we can tell from Scripture - compel them to praise Him, as this would be meaningless, if not repulsive.
Therefore, under the earth must refer to purgatory. Revelation 5:13 especially makes sense under this interpretation, as the praise spoken there does not in any way appear forced, but rather, heartfelt and seemingly spontaneous (which would not be at all expected of persons eternally consigned to hell - see Matthew 8:29, Luke 4:34, 8:28, James 2:19).
Again we also read in: 2 Timothy 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me - may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day - and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.
Onesiphorus appears to be dead at the time St. Paul writes this letter to Timothy. If that is true, then Paul is praying for the dead .
While Christ was on the cross he had said to one of the criminals "I say to you this day you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). This is often used by some to refute the doctrine of purgatory since the thief did not have to spend any time in purgatory but was with Christ in paradise on the same day? In response to this, we know that Jesus was not speaking literally because he did not enter heaven until after his ascension (40 days after the resurrection). This we know because Christ himself declares it to the woman weeping (John 20:17) when he says, "Do not hold on to me for I have not yet returned to the father"(see also Mk 16:19). Further we note that Christ said to the dying thief "this day I say to you", in other words on that particular day Christ was going to affirm something to the thief, namely that he would one day enter heaven. This is often misinterpreted and so it is read as meaning "this day you shall be in Paradise".
Further Jesus himself affirms it saying (John 24:25) "Did not Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory". This shows us that not until he rose from the dead was he to enter into his due glory (heaven). Jesus tells us that he will be in the underworld (sheol) for three days when he declares to the Pharisees " For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth "(Matt 12: 40). "

Catholic apolegetics...

v/r

Joshua

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Silas

Dondi, you believe in purgatory? The verses you gave me, by the way, is dealing with the subject of a believer's motives. If his works are done in the wrong motives, it will be counted as either, straw, or wood, or hay, at the believer's judgement. Look at the verses in closely in context, you'll see that the fire tests a man's service, of what sort it is. The man is saved despite the fact that his works are consumed by the fire.

Believers in Christ will be changed in an instant, in a twinkling of an eye, according to I Cor. 15:51-52. However, we will have to give account to God for the things we done while here on earth. I believe that we will have a sense of loss and wastefulness over times we weren't in the Lord's will and mourn for the potential that we coulda, shoulda, woulda had if we lined ourselves in His perfect will for us. Also, nothing we have done will be hidden. So anything we have done wrong to others will be revealed. There will be things that will be embarassing and shameful and those who we affected, we will know and they will know. There will have to be much healing and reconciliation with those we wronged there in heaven. After all, we will have to live with our borthers and sister in Christ for all eternity. But I believe that God will give us the grace to be able to forgive one another. His Love will flow freely through us and we will have a divine love for others such that we can forgive and have compassion and mercy upon those who hurt us and vice versa. All our sins, of course, will be forgiven through the Blood of Christ, but there will still be an accounting to God and the whole family of God.

So in a sense, we will have a purging our all the dross left over ("That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:" - I Peter 1:7). There will be a time of healing, yet joy unspeakable and full of glory.

[Thomas]

but do you believe in Purgatory?
Do I believe in the possibility of repentance after death? Yes, for the following reason ...

Do souls need cleansing before heaven?
Yes ... no-one is or can be 'perfect' ... it's all a matter of degree ... Only God alone is good.

Did the early church believe in it or is it a Catholic invention?
The early Church believed the Parousia within their own lifetime ... then believed in those who 'sleep in Christ' as St Paul said. They also believed that all Christians were saints, but by the third century it became obvious that if everyone was a 'saint', then the word was meaningless. There were professed Christians who were, by anybody's book 'very naughty boys', so simply by calling yourself a Christian did not mean you could call yourself a saint.

So doctrine evolves (it is not invented) as we seek to answer fresh challenges presented to us.

Surely nothing impure could enter Heaven?
Can it not? Christ, in heaven, bears the marks of the Cross and the Crown of thorns. So his body is not perfect, it bears its wounds ... the wounds might be 'glorious' by virtue of what is achieved by them, but they nevertheless mar the essential 'purity' of the body ... a pure body doesn't have holes in its extremities or side ... something to dwell upon ...

NOTE:
This is the kind of things theologians are obliged to deal with - questions that no-one else thinks to ask. To assume then, that the question and its answer is an 'invention' is something of a disservice...

Dont we need to repent, either here or hereafter?
This is the crux of the question.

If someone goes to hell, and repents, are they required to remain in hell?

If yes, is that not a 'bad' thing? Do you continue to punish someone even after they have apologised? How can you justify continuing to punish someone, even though they repent of their actions? When do you stop? When you grow tired or bored of punishing them?

Worse still:
If you cannot repent in hell, then what 'virtue' is there in punishment? What is the point? It is a cruel and meaningless action...

Either way, yes or no, it ends up with punishment being administered solely for the pleasure of the one who punishes ... there is no value, positive or negative, for the one being punished ... again, this is a bad thing ...

So theology decided that:
a - the human continues as 'human' and therefore is self-aware and able to make choices and decisions;
b - that the choice or decision made can have an ameliorating effect on the situation;
c - the degree of punishment is subjective in that it marks the distance between what is good, and what has been done - or rather, the punishment suits the crime, else it is indiscriminate;
d - 'purification' or purgation involves stripping away all self-deception, illusion, fantasy ... so that one is faced with the truth of oneself, and not with a 'convenient' truth of one's own fabrication;
e - if one continues to cling to one's illusions, one will continue to suffer;
f - if one surrenders, suffering ceases.
g - 'suffering' is therefore the objective realisation of truth,
h - 'pain' is the subjective realisation of the same.
i - All the above are conclsuions drawn from the fact that God is Good.
+++

When Christ spoke of 'hell' he used the term Gehenna ... despoiled ground outside Jerusalem that was used as a rubbish tip, where the detritus was left to rot, and which, being in the nature of rubbish tips, was probably quite smelly, with the odd fire etc ... He was presenting, in a very graphic image, the idea of a life simply not wanted any more.

This is in contrast to the Hebrew Sheol, a place in which the soul enters a kind of limbic state, because, being disembodied, it has no mode of activity ... so the soul goes into a kind of 'sleep' until the Resurrection at the end of the Age ... Sheol is frightening because a coma is frightening, but Gehenna is more frightening yet, because it implies that if you have lived a worthless life, then there is no place in the afterlife for you.

So he was talking about two things:
a - The very real possibility that death, the extinction of the being, is a reality that can happen immediately upon death;
b - the very real possibility that there is an eschatalogical state in which one is simply 'not wanted' and cast aside until, at the end of the Age, the rubbish is disposed off.

If your whole life is one of fantasy and self deception - and a life steeped in sin involves deceiving one's own conscience first and foremost ... then when that is stripped away ... what remains of 'you' ... there is the very real chance that nothing is left ... that you indeed have ceased to exist ...

As the wise ones say "You become what you think about"

+++

Is the repentent murderer to recieve the same justice as a life long saint?
Yes.

Again, the conscience is striken by the implication of the degree of wrong in the face of truth ... so the sorrow of a saint, or a child, will be 'light' compared to the sorrow of the murderer precisely because, presumably, the murderer was further from the good than the saint, and so will feel the sorrow even more.

+++

There is, it has to be acknowledged ... a very real danger in the Uriah Heep syndrome – an excess of piety which reduces one to a cringing "I am not worthy" which is, in its own way, a sin and a 'guilty pleasure' ...

... those who make a great display of contrition, flaggelant monks, gurus who make a virtue of suffering ... it's a fine line ...

Thomas

[wil]

Namaste Thomas,

Couple things....seems invention has a bad connotation...

What 'invention' didn't evolve? Somewhere along the way someone has an idea or revelation acts upon it and it becomes part of reality or consciousness...calling it invention by man does not constitute a negative I wouldn't think and isn't denying that the church came up with its dogma is denying the church?

If the reason for purgatory is that we are not perfect, are not good, and only G-d is good, then going through purgatory either makes us good/G-d or isn't doing its job as I perceive what you've written.

So theology decided?? Which theology? Is theology thinking for itself now?

Love the contemplations....thanx.

[mee]

Originally Posted by robocombot

I know this was touched on here: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ight=purgatory

but do you believe in Purgatory?

Do souls need cleansing before heaven? Did the early church believe in it or is it a Catholic invention? Surely nothing impure could enter Heaven? Dont we need to repent, either here or hereafter? Is the repentent murderer to recieve the same justice as a life long saint?

any thoughts?

its not a bible teaching,

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Believers in Christ will be changed in an instant, in a twinkling of an eye, according to I Cor. 15:51-52. However, we will have to give account to God for the things we done while here on earth. I believe that we will have a sense of loss and wastefulness over times we weren't in the Lord's will and mourn for the potential that we coulda, shoulda, woulda had if we lined ourselves in His perfect will for us. Also, nothing we have done will be hidden. So anything we have done wrong to others will be revealed. There will be things that will be embarassing and shameful and those who we affected, we will know and they will know. There will have to be much healing and reconciliation with those we wronged there in heaven. After all, we will have to live with our borthers and sister in Christ for all eternity. But I believe that God will give us the grace to be able to forgive one another. His Love will flow freely through us and we will have a divine love for others such that we can forgive and have compassion and mercy upon those who hurt us and vice versa. All our sins, of course, will be forgiven through the Blood of Christ, but there will still be an accounting to God and the whole family of God.

So in a sense, we will have a purging our all the dross left over ("That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:" - I Peter 1:7). There will be a time of healing, yet joy unspeakable and full of glory.

So you dont believe in an actually place?

[Thomas]

Hi Wil –

It's all in the terminology...

What 'invention' didn't evolve?
An 'invention' is something new made by someone ... Is truth an invention?

Somewhere along the way someone has an idea or revelation acts upon it and it becomes part of reality or consciousness...calling it invention by man does not constitute a negative I wouldn't think and isn't denying that the church came up with its dogma is denying the church?
But in that context 'invention' is the wrong term. An insight or an understanding is not an invention... nor, most certainly, is revelation.

Invention in that context smacks of a contrivance.

If the reason for purgatory is that we are not perfect, are not good, and only G-d is good, then going through purgatory either makes us good/G-d or isn't doing its job as I perceive what you've written.

The reason for purgatory is that God is good, so has made an allowance for the 'imperfect' to undergo metanoia, a change of heart, in light of what they have come to know and understand.

By imperfection we mean a moral imperfection.

So theology decided?? Which theology? Is theology thinking for itself now?
You are right, my imprecise terminology. Theology is 'faith seeking understanding' (St Anselm), so I should rather have said:
So the theologians, searching the Word of Scripture, and guided by the light of faith and reason, came to the understanding that ...

Thanks for the brotherly corrective ... I have chosen you to be the Moriarty to my Gryptype-Thynne (cf The Goons) ... If you've never heard The Goons, then that will make no sense whatsoever...

Thomas
(exits left, to strains of The Yingtong Song, and groin)