Purgatory?

robocombot · 02-19-2005, 03:46 AM

I know this was touched on here: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ight=purgatory

but do you believe in Purgatory?

Do souls need cleansing before heaven? Did the early church believe in it or is it a Catholic invention? Surely nothing impure could enter Heaven? Dont we need to repent, either here or hereafter? Is the repentent murderer to recieve the same justice as a life long saint?

any thoughts?

Bandit · 02-19-2005, 10:19 AM

I dont know Robo. I was not raised with terms like that but I have heard of it.

I think it is best to take care of it all now and walk in the spirit, peace and joy of the Lord, then we wont have to worry too much about repenting later.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a good place to look and the 3 days Jesus was in the tomb talks a little about it. I think the whole thing is probably in reference to hell (hades).
Now I personally dont see anything mystical about stuff and I think it is a real place but more in the sense of a place just for our souls to rest until he resurrects us all together.

From what I can see Jesus is the only one who has been raised up and he is the only one who can tell us for sure.

Sacredstar · 02-19-2005, 08:28 PM

Dear robocombot

Quote:

Originally Posted by robocombot

1. But do you believe in Purgatory?

2. Do souls need cleansing before heaven?

3. Surely nothing impure could enter Heaven?

4. Dont we need to repent, either here or hereafter?

5. Is the repentent murderer to recieve the same justice as a life long saint?

Pope John Paul on December 7, 2000 when he proclaimed "Heaven is open to all as long as they are good," even for "those who ignore Christ and his Church." The December 8, Electronic Telegraph reported the Pope as saying that "Heaven is open to all as long as they are good." The Pope was also quoted as telling an audience that "all of the just on Earth, including those who ignore Christ and his Church" were "called upon to build the kingdom of God."

I respond as a Christian Spiritualist

1. That only exists in the earth plane reality heaven and hell is within

2. The soul travels through many incarnations to purify the soul prior to the soul fully merging with the spirit and GOD.

3. Depends how you define heaven, the soul is trapped in the cycle of rebirth until such time as the soul breaks the cycle through purification, so even when a soul leaves planet earth if it as not merged fully with the spirit it does not go very far.

4. No this is not requested but you do have choice to use your free to align your human will with the divine will of your soul and GOD. As I understand it when one leaves the earthly plane one witnesses one's whole life from our perspective and from other's that have played important roles in our lives. The soul then chooses what it will choose to overcome in the next life time to purify the soul of the negative words, thoughts and deeds. Of course pain and suffering purifies the soul. But I have it on good authority that human kind have repaid so much there are many souls that have now broken the cycle and so they will not be reincarnating back on earth.

5. Of course all is equal in GOD's eyes.

It is very much like the Egyptian belief that your heart must weigh as light as a feather and of course the soul carries many negative memories of imperfection from past lives particularly to do with persecution for religious belief amongst other things.

Blessings

Sacredstar

didymus · 02-19-2005, 09:28 PM

Did the Pope actually say that? That's amazing to me and confirms my belief that they are privy to alot of secrets of the early church. I heard of a bishop saying a couple decades ago that" this Christ myth is really working well for us."

I think sometime in the future many things will be revealed by the Catholic church. These secrets will deeply trouble alot of people but will eventually free them to know God.

didymus · 02-19-2005, 09:33 PM

I forgot to mention but I think there may be some form of purgatory. Whether this is on an individual basis or not, whoo knows. A friend of mine gets visits frommhis deceased brother alot in dreams. His brother talks to him. On one occasion he saw his brother and he appeared very sad and lost. His brother told my friend that he didn't know anybody there and was lonely. My friend told him to go out and meet some people. That he could if he tried. Then his brother said he was going to see his mother and went into a different room. He came back in a white suit and looked very healthy.

I don't claim to know the meaning of this but it was a curious dream.

Sacredstar · 02-19-2005, 10:39 PM

Dear Didymus

Yes the Pope really said that he also went on TV in 1998 and told the people that the devil, heaven and hell are within. Which is why the Christian Fundamentalists are divorcing themselves from the Church of Rome. I find it fascinating to watch all this unfold as the false doctrines and structures come down. In fact Rome knows that if they want to keep their jobs they have to change in line with 21st century consciousness. They can no longer kill people for disbelief or hide the lies anymore.

Sounds like the man in the dream had not found his way fully to the light but a blessing indeed that he did in the end.

Onwards and upwards

Kim xx

Sacredstar · 02-19-2005, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

I think sometime in the future many things will be revealed by the Catholic church. These secrets will deeply trouble alot of people but will eventually free them to know God.

Well can you imagine, it will more then trouble them they will be devastated by the trickery and lies but you are right those that survive it, will be enlightened by a new relationship with GOD and no doctrines or dogma to stand in between.

A similar thing happened with a very large US spiritual organisation and when their founder became sick and all her promises to them for 20 years did not come to fruition they did not know who they were anymore. They lost confidence in themselves and their own reasoning powers and ability to discern the light from the dark, but yet many still remain brain washed by mind control limping down the same path. Interesting that she like the church controlled people through fear based teachings.

GOD speed all with their healing journey and soul's purification.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Sacredstar · 02-20-2005, 03:26 PM

Just remembered i think it was Dante that introduced Purgatory which appealed to the church of Rome worth doing a search on that.

being love

Kim xx

Quahom1 · 02-20-2005, 09:17 PM

Perhaps we are looking too late in time for the answer.

The early Christian Egyptians or Copts followed the ancient traditions of learning and established a theological school or the Catechetical School. Athenagoras of Athens was one of one of the professors at the library of Alexandria's museum, which was a major stronghold of intellectual paganism at Alexandria. He like many other pagan Platonic philosophers of his time was interested in Christianity and desired to expose its fallacies. He studied Christian writings to refute the new religion. However, his study led him to be convinced with the truth of Christianity. After Athenagoras 's conversion to Christianity, he continued his philosophical teaching at the museum. He became a champion to defend Christianity and addressed his defense of Christianity or " Apology" to the Roman emperors Marcus Aurelius and Commodus circa 176-177 A.D. Pataenus and Clement of Alexandria were indicated to have studied with Athenagoras; and both like most Copts of their time had been well educated in all the learning of the ancients, as well as in the truths of Christianity. Under the rule of the Emperor Commodus, the newly established Coptic Catechetical School was led Pantaenus circa 190 A.D. Clement of Alexandria followed Pantaenus as head of the Catechetical school. Oregon or Oreganos was one of the most celebrated and prolific Coptic philosophers who led the Catechetical school. These philosophers and others defended early Christianity against the pagan and later heretic teachings. For example, the Alexandrian Catechetical School also used the method of interpretation or "exegesis" developed by the pagan scholars of the Alexandrian library museum. Further more, Origen, whose name means, born of Horus the ancient Egyptian God, not only translated the bible and developed the Hexapla, he also ventured in philosophical speculations that influenced Christian scholars and philosophers for ages. One of his philosophical speculations is that GOD has unlimited mercy to the extent that ultimately all creation, including non- believers in Christ and even Satan, will be saved. The Coptic and other Orthodox Churches did not follow the speculative interpretation of Oregon on salvation, however the Roman Catholic Church's belief in purgatory may have been to some extent influenced by Origen's interpretation. Another Coptic philosopher was Hepatia. She was a respected pagan philosopher known for her erudition and knowledge.
Hepatia met an unfortunate death at the hands of an unruly mob. Her murder occurred during clashes between Christians and pagans during the region of the Roman Emperor Theodosius around 390 A.D.

Just a thought.

v/r

Q

Postmaster · 02-20-2005, 09:34 PM

Here is my view..

The power and measure of God goes beyond any human will ever reach even in the spirit world. When we die we will all reach a level of God not experienced in the present, even the murders, however for those that clearly go out of there way to create good and love will reach a closer part of God. People that die that took the material world too seriously and even to the extent of murder will not reach as close lever as a person that gave and suffered in the name of good. He will be blinded even in death but he will still reach a level of God which will be acceptable forever because I believe that everything has a purpose in life, those evil people who are guilty of murder the person who they killed equally chose to die that form of death (be it to save an other life, or because they bought it about themselves) and maybe this is what is know as ghosts, beings that can't accept God that are trapped in-between earth and heaven of which are both one in the same thing in some sense. However, this is the way I like to see it, personally I believe that humans do not posses the knowledge of everything and something’s our minds are not even designed to understand. Once you accpet that and put your trust in God you fear nothing of the afterlife.

robocombot · 02-20-2005, 11:14 PM

Sacredstar,

Dante was a poet who wrote about Purgatory in about the 16th century, the idea of Purgatory goes back to St Augustine in 4th century.

There are references in the Old and New Testament that imply, but dont explicity state, the existance of Purgatory.

BTW Dante is excellent poetry and well worth reading, but it is only poetry not scripture.

Sacredstar · 02-21-2005, 01:12 AM

The first english translation of the bible was not until 1600's and Tyndale included sentences like 'salt of the earth'. So translators have added their own take along the way.

Dante as far as I am aware was also an artist who first painted purgatory but please correct me if I am mistaken about this.

Origen was also branded a heretic which is why Jerome was commissioned to retranslate and start again.

Blessings

Kim xx

Marsh · 02-21-2005, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a good place to look and the 3 days Jesus was in the tomb talks a little about it. I think the whole thing is probably in reference to hell (hades).

I think the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is absolutely crucial to understanding what happens to people when they die. The rich man went somewhere uncomfortable, and Lazarus went somewhere comforting-- the same place that Abraham went. But I don't think that these two places are heaven and hell.

My opinion:

I think that back in the days before Jesus nobody went to heaven after they died. I also don't think that anyone goes to hell until the very end of the age (I think that Jesus' teachings on the place called "hell" were a reference to the lake of fire from the Revelation). I think that the souls of the dead went to the place referred to as Hades in the NT, and Sheol in the OT, which is in both cases the same: The realm of the dead.

After Jesus died and came back to life the gates to heaven were opened for the souls of humans; Jesus himself opened them. But I think Hades still exists, and it is the place where those of us who don't accept God will go after we die. And then depending on one's life and works one would end up in the comforting side or the uncomfortable side until the end of the age, and the final judgment.

Purgatory, in my opinion, is a warped doctrine based on what we already knew about Hades (Sheol), and that it was warped by the false doctrine that it is our works, and not our faith in Jesus' love for us, that get us into heaven.

Sacredstar · 02-21-2005, 03:05 AM

I read that it was a dung heap a bit like where we dump the rubbish...perhaps BB could give us the facts on translation.

Blessings

Kim xx

Bandit · 02-21-2005, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh

I think the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is absolutely crucial to understanding what happens to people when they die. The rich man went somewhere uncomfortable, and Lazarus went somewhere comforting-- the same place that Abraham went. But I don't think that these two places are heaven and hell.

My opinion:

I think that back in the days before Jesus nobody went to heaven after they died. I also don't think that anyone goes to hell until the very end of the age (I think that Jesus' teachings on the place called "hell" were a reference to the lake of fire from the Revelation). I think that the souls of the dead went to the place referred to as Hades in the NT, and Sheol in the OT, which is in both cases the same: The realm of the dead.

After Jesus died and came back to life the gates to heaven were opened for the souls of humans; Jesus himself opened them. But I think Hades still exists, and it is the place where those of us who don't accept God will go after we die. And then depending on one's life and works one would end up in the comforting side or the uncomfortable side until the end of the age, and the final judgment.

Purgatory, in my opinion, is a warped doctrine based on what we already knew about Hades (Sheol), and that it was warped by the false doctrine that it is our works, and not our faith in Jesus' love for us, that get us into heaven.

Yes Marsh. that is how I am seeing it too.
I see the rich man and lazarus more of a reality over all the other parables. It is the only parable where names are mentioned and EVERYONE knew those two people and they understood what the bosom of Abraham was. Very interesting indeed. Purgatory I feel is warped too. And yes you are right about the final judgement. That is no parable.
We have instant access to the throne of God through Jesus.