Queen of Heaven

[Thomas]

Hi LeoSalinas22,

You mention catholicism is not in accord to the true church of God.

Which church is that, might I ask?

Thomas

[LeoSalinas22]

the church that doesn't worship the queen of heaven, the church that doesn't worship a crufifix made by the hands of man, the church that doesn't worship a mere man that calls himself the pope, whom i am certain puts on his underwear one leg at a time just like the rest of us. the true church is a body of people and not a building or a "organization". the true church is not of this world but of God. they don't support any governments of this world like the pope did with the nazis. they have found the narrow path that no one else doesn't seem to care to look for. that is the true church.

[pfw]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Just like to point out again that the 'queen of heaven' of Jeremiah is Asherah, consort of El.

If I am to equate Asherah with the Virgin Mary,
do I also equate the pagan god 'El' with Elohim ... as the link is even closer?

I rather think one is supposed to understand and discern the text.

+++

Similarly, Proverbs and Wisdom presents 'Wisdom' as a woman, who was with God before the creation of the world ... is the Bible saying she is a god, therefore?

Thomas

Especially as El basicly translates as 'I am' and God introduced Himself to Abraham as 'I am who/what I am' (and I've read 1 translation that says 'I am I am...)

[Thomas]

the church that doesn't worship the queen of heaven,
Nor do Catholics. Get your facts right.

the church that doesn't worship a crufifix made by the hands of man,
Nor do Catholics. Get your facts right.

the church that doesn't worship a mere man that calls himself the pope,
Nor do Catholics. Get your facts right.

the true church is a body of people and not a building or a "organization".
What is a 'body of people' if not an organisation. A disorganisation? An unorganisation? Get your facts right.

the true church is not of this world but of God.
Then it doesn't exists at all, does it? And the 'Church of God' was founded here, by Christ, on the Faith of Peter. Read your Scripture. Get your facts right.

they don't support any governments of this world like the pope did with the nazis.
Again, get your facts right ...

Put it this way: I could say, with a much greater degree of 'accuracy', that the US Government supported the Nazis. But that would be to present a one-sided view of what happened, and distort the truth of the affair, but nevertheless, the US poured significant amounts of cash and material support into National Socialism to bolster a crumbling state.

they have found the narrow path that no one else doesn't seem to care to look for.
Again ... who ...

i say this in the most humble and truethful way.
It doesn't read like it. Quite the reverse, in fact. I suggest you examine what you've beed fed as 'truth' as most of it appears to be propaganda.

Thomas

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dor

Oh is there a link showing this has been retracted or what exactly has been?

Perhaps "cleared up" is a better term.

Here is what Catholicism states of Mary: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Virgin Mary

And here is what the "Queen of heaven" entails: Mariology - Queen of Heaven: Pagan Divinity or Royal Mother of the Messiah? - Mark Brumley - Catholic Faith - March/April 2000

Clearly she is not worshipped nor considered literally the Queen of heaven.

That is a misnomer on peoples' part.

[Faithfulservant]

I know that the Catholic church is torn over this. I know it from the word of mouth from several that I know and you can read it if you just google and start reading from both sides of the issue. But it goes without saying that it IS an issue and that there are a portion of Catholics that believe that doctrine should be made to make Mary more than God made her. Human and falliable. This is an excerpt from something I was reading on http://www.raptureready.com/rr-catholic.html This was disturbing to me and I have some sincere questions that I hope you guys will answer for me. Im curious if our resident catholics are aware of this group? How about that they can influence the church to make doctrine based on a number of signatures? I also did not know that the church allowed that Mary was an advocate and mediator when the bible said who those two roles were covered by. I knew that a portion of Hispanic catholic churches believe and practice Mary worship but I assumed that it was limited. Is this taught in all the churches? Is the Pontifical Internation Marian Academy recognize by the Vatican?

In 1996, the Pontifical International Marian Academy was asked by the Vatican to investigate the possibility of redefining the Marian titles to include "Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate" (summary can be found here.) Their findings were absolute on the Mediatrix and Advocate roles, but with no binding precedent, they were inconclusive on the title of "Coredemptrix."
The group that is in charge of this groundswell effort is Vox Populi (Voice of the People), led by Dr. Mark Miravalle. Its mission is to gain the approval of the 5th Marian Dogma, her elevation to co-redemptrix for salvation. The outline of the request can be seen at http://www.voxpopuli.org/info.asp. How do they explain this deviation from Scripture?

"This ‘collaboration’ or ‘co-operation’ or ‘participation’ of the Mother of Jesus ‘Marian coredemption,’ or more specifically, Mary is referred to as ‘the Coredemptrix with the Redeemer’" (Vox Populi FAQ)

In other words, "Jesus couldn't have done it without her," and Vox Populi feels that we therefore need to recognize that and declare Mary the co-redemptrix of salvation. The group’s website cites many examples of the current Pope, John Paul II, using the terminology "co-redemptrix" in his addresses, using the same definition as they. They are asking that the doctrine of co-redemptrix no longer just be referenced, but that it becomes official church doctrine, ExCathedria.
Vox Populi released a statement on June 11, 2000 announcing that its petition for the 5th Marian Dogma, the Papal Definition of Our Mother Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix of all Graces, and Advocate, and the Triumph of Her Immaculate Heart, had surpassed the 6,000,000 signatures mark.

Thanks for any answers you can give.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I know that the Catholic church is torn over this. I know it from the word of mouth from several that I know and you can read it if you just google and start reading from both sides of the issue. But it goes without saying that it IS an issue and that there are a portion of Catholics that believe that doctrine should be made to make Mary more than God made her. Human and falliable. This is an excerpt from something I was reading on http://www.raptureready.com/rr-catholic.html This was disturbing to me and I have some sincere questions that I hope you guys will answer for me. Im curious if our resident catholics are aware of this group? How about that they can influence the church to make doctrine based on a number of signatures? I also did not know that the church allowed that Mary was an advocate and mediator when the bible said who those two roles were covered by. I knew that a portion of Hispanic catholic churches believe and practice Mary worship but I assumed that it was limited. Is this taught in all the churches? Is the Pontifical Internation Marian Academy recognize by the Vatican?

Thanks for any answers you can give.

Fringe groups, cultural impacts on basic tennants of a belief. A will to change issues to suite particular desires. Superstition. These are all a part of life, and effect anything they touch.

Once there was the Church of England. Now through demands of some, there is the Anglican church and the Episcopalian church. Further still, the Episcopalian church is splitting again into two variants, due to demands by some and a refusal to accept by the remainder.

I am comfortable going into a Catholic church, not so comfortable going into a spanish or Latino Catholic church. I kind of get lost in the proceedings of an orthodox Catholic church. Yet I feel right at home in a church made up mostly of German/Irish/English/Polish/Italian worshippers, same goes for the conservative Episcopalian church.

It is a matter of culture and upbringing that influences the particular parish or diocese.

Even between generations within the same parish there are differences. My parents and grand parents say the rosary, and hold benedictions...I do not (though I know how). They believe in communion at every mass, and I do not worry about it.

Where I stick to old fashioned beliefs is in the seven sacraments, and High Mass for significant events, such as a baptism, Marriage, Memorial services.

[Faithfulservant]

See then my intial assumption was correct... I work with many hispanics and most are catholic and are very superstitious.. Example one girl is from El Salvador one is from Columbia and another is from Mexico ... all three believe in the Chupacabra Chupacabra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I had never heard of this and I was watching a documentary and came to work and asked if they believed it in which they all said yes. The documentary concluded with scientists observing a corpse in which was an exact duplication of another occurance where chupacabra was blamed.. well the corpse being observed showed that insects were actually the villians.

anyways.. My point is that it seems that as a culture they are superstitious which feeds this particular phenomenon. Thanks Q.. I wonder if Thomas would concur..

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

See then my intial assumption was correct... I work with many hispanics and most are catholic and are very superstitious.. Example one girl is from El Salvador one is from Columbia and another is from Mexico ... all three believe in the Chupacabra Chupacabra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I had never heard of this and I was watching a documentary and came to work and asked if they believed it in which they all said yes. The documentary concluded with scientists observing a corpse in which was an exact duplication of another occurance where chupacabra was blamed.. well the corpse being observed showed that insects were actually the villians.

anyways.. My point is that it seems that as a culture they are superstitious which feeds this particular phenomenon. Thanks Q.. I wonder if Thomas would concur..

Vampirism goes back alot farther than 1970s Puerto Rico, etc., however, if they are (the people you speak with) young and uneducated (relativly speaking), it goes to show how a ghost story can become a myth and eventually a superstition. But that really has nothing to do with Catholocism or the Queen of Heaven I should think, unless your intention is to show all myths and superstitions develop the same way.

But again that would have nothing actually to do with official church doctrine (nor biblical reference).

Take for example the legend of the "Jersey devil"...or the "witches of Salem" (which turned out to be a town racked by a hallucinagenic spore attached to the local rye grain which was made into bread, and consumed by the local populace)...in short they were all high on a derivitive of LSD...

[Caimanson]

I've lived in some latin american countries, I can see why people are asking the question. As far as I can see the virgin Mary does seem to take the forefront, in terms of who people pray to and in terms of religious celebrations.
Now I'm not a catholic and have never been one, so I cannot speak from the inside. I am also aware that catholicism is huge and very diverse.

The way I see it latin american catholicism is heavily blended with the pagan traditions of the original inhabitants of the americas, and those of the african slaves, in some instances the boundary between say something like santeria is difficult to assert (I mean in the life of a an ordinary "catholic").
Check for example the story of the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe, it can't get more pagan than that. Check "los diablos de Yare" celabration on corpus christi as one of many religious celebrations that are heavily pagan in origin and content.

As far as I understand the catholic church is definetely aware of the pagan links and I think it was a deliberate evangelisation strategy during the colonisation of the americas, that is to christianise their pagan customs.

I think is the same phenomena in some asian countries where buddhism is heavily blended with traditional animistic and shamanistic traditions.

In places like the states or the uk where the culture has been predominatly protestant I think catholicism looks different, though I think mediterranean catholicism is closer to the latin american experience.

I just wonder how does catholicism accomodate all this variety in scriptural terms.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Caimanson

I've lived in some latin american countries, I can see why people are asking the question. As far as I can see the virgin Mary does seem to take the forefront, in terms of who people pray to and in terms of religious celebrations.
Now I'm not a catholic and have never been one, so I cannot speak from the inside. I am also aware that catholicism is huge and very diverse.

The way I see it latin american catholicism is heavily blended with the pagan traditions of the original inhabitants of the americas, and those of the african slaves, in some instances the boundary between say something like santeria is difficult to assert (I mean in the life of a an ordinary "catholic").
Check for example the story of the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe, it can't get more pagan than that. Check "los diablos de Yare" celabration on corpus christi as one of many religious celebrations that are heavily pagan in origin and content.

As far as I understand the catholic church is definetely aware of the pagan links and I think it was a deliberate evangelisation strategy during the colonisation of the americas, that is to christianise their pagan customs.

I think is the same phenomena in some asian countries where buddhism is heavily blended with traditional animistic and shamanistic traditions.

In places like the states or the uk where the culture has been predominatly protestant I think catholicism looks different, though I think mediterranean catholicism is closer to the latin american experience.

I just wonder how does catholicism accomodate all this variety in scriptural terms.

Thanks for the confirmation. As far as the Papacy, the higher one is in the ozone, the less one cares. The concern for the masses is grass roots level. The Local priests must work with the faithful (and all bagage that comes with).

This is true no matter what the power or form of government.

maybe that's why I prefer middle management...

[Faithfulservant]

Thanks Caimason. Im interested in varying points of view.

[Thomas]

Excesses and arguments aside, the first step is to understand precisely what the theological poistion is addressing.

In the words of Anglican Oxford scholar, Dr. John Macquarrie:
My point 1:
"The matter [of Marian mediation] cannot be settled by pointing to the danger of exaggeration and abuse... "

My point 2:
"or by appealing to isolated texts of scripture ..."

My point 3:
"or by the desire not to say anything that might offend one's partners in ecumenical dialogue."

So we needd to get rid of those first. On Point2, before anyone suggests I'm implying get rid of scripture, I am not, but I am saying one cannot quote single verses as proof of anything without reference to the context of scripture as a whole. This is the kind of thing gnostics etc. do, they have their favourite verses – that 'prove' reincarnation for example, when it's a clear and undeniable fact of the totality of scripture that such waas never taught.

to continue:

"Unthinking enthusiasts may have elevated Mary's position to a virtual equality with Christ, but this aberration is not a necessary consequence of recognizing that there may be a truth striving for expression in words like Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix."

In short, people get carried away. That's why we have a Magisterium, and why we have theologians, and why we take a long time to deliberate. Of cource, we get criticised for not moving with the times, but too often 'moving' means enthusiasms for the latest novelty.

"All responsible theologians would agree that Mary's co-redemptive role is subordinate and auxiliary to the central role of Christ."

So let there be no doubt about that.

"But if she does have such a role, the more clearly we understand it, the better. And like other doctrines concerning Mary, it is not only saying something about her, but something more general about the Church as a whole, and even humanity as a whole."

I think that point sums it up.

Thomas

[Faithfulservant]

Thats a wonderful point, Thomas. It makes me think about how God created us to worship Him and if we arent worshipping Him we are worshipping something or someone else or even ourselves.

[mee]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

the church that doesn't worship the queen of heaven, the church that doesn't worship a crufifix made by the hands of man, the church that doesn't worship a mere man that calls himself the pope, whom i am certain puts on his underwear one leg at a time just like the rest of us. the true church is a body of people and not a building or a "organization". the true church is not of this world but of God. they don't support any governments of this world like the pope did with the nazis. they have found the narrow path that no one else doesn't seem to care to look for. that is the true church.

i have found it