QuEsTiOn ?!?!?!?!

[tishrei5736]

Hi Knight,

No worries about the questions. It also gives me things to think about.

Originally Posted by KnightoftheRose

Ah, my bad...my understanding of Catholicism is outdated, obviously...

Well, I don't think the Catholic Church has really responded to all the Protestant propaganda against it in an articulate enough way. Nor has it improved its image to the world especially due to its various sex scandals and hard line views on contraception and abortion etc. Although, this has been a general trend among other Churches as well.

That's interesting...so would you say the Second Vatican Council changed the face of Catholicism? I mean, is the Catholic Church today the same as it was before the 60's? Or has the whole tone changed?

This is a really interesting question. I can only answer in a post Vatican 2 perspective, since I wasn't even born then. However, from the accounts of my parents and other older Catholics who lived through those revolutionary days, it was a massive change such that the church would never be the same again. Bear in mind that the implementation of the doctrines and strategies from Vatican 2 are still in the process of being implemented, even 40 years after the event. Such is the magnitude of the church with its 1 billion followers throughout the world.

For other Catholics, especially the more revolutionary types, the changes of Vatican 2 were not enough. Whilst on the other side of the spectrum, you would get those who resented the changes and are still longing for the old Latin Masses sung in Gregorian Chant.

To answer your question, Vatican 2 really did change the face of the church. Most of the core constitutions were rewritten. Furthermore, some of its changes have still not been fully implemented due to the resistance of some of the more conservative people. However, based on the history of the church, the first 25 to 50 years after such a great change are a time of 'trial'. So we will not know the full extent of the impact of the changes until at least a hundred years from Vatican 2.

Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask me more questions.

Tishrei

[KnightoftheRose]

Tishrei,

Thanks for your post!

I've only got one more question really - just something that I've been wondering about for some time...

Is the practice of having or praying to a patron saint widespread? I've asked a couple Catholics before if they had one, and they either looked puzzled or like I was retarded. Is it something of an archaic practice, or does it have a place in the modern world?

[Faithfulservant]

I am by no means an expert on Catholicism but I thought the act of praying to the saints and Mary was to plead intercession for sinners in purgatory so that they may move onto heaven. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me.

[tishrei5736]

Originally Posted by KnightoftheRose

Tishrei,

Thanks for your post!

I've only got one more question really - just something that I've been wondering about for some time...

Is the practice of having or praying to a patron saint widespread? I've asked a couple Catholics before if they had one, and they either looked puzzled or like I was retarded. Is it something of an archaic practice, or does it have a place in the modern world?

Hi Knight

Thanks again for your questions.

I must admit, I haven't got a specific patron saint for myself, although I do pray to them and Mary in particular who we consider the greatest of the saints. When I went through the sacrament of Confirmation back in primary school, all of us got to choose a specific saint whose name we took on as our confirmation name. However, this practice also varies according to the country or region you come from. The saint that I chose was St. Augustine of Hippo, but I don't remember ever praying to him, which is rather neglectful of me. I think Catholics (especially the older ones) tend to pray to specific saints who are the patron saint of a specific object or form of assistance rather than having a single patron saint for themselves. For example, St. Jude Thaddeus, one of Jesus' apostles is known as the patron saint of hopeless cases such as shipwrecked sailors. However, this is not as popular today as it was in the past. On the other hand, there are those who are obliged to honour and follow specific saints, for example, those specifically consecrated to Mary, or who may be in a religious order with a particular saint as their founder such as St. Ignatius of Loyola for the Jesuits, St. Dominic for the Dominicans, St. Francis for the Franciscans and more recently St. Josemarie Escriva for Opus Dei.

After Vatican 2, the whole Roman Liturgical Calendar was revamped to refocus on Jesus and the primacy of the Sunday Mass over and above the Feasts of the Saints. However, the Feasts of Mary and the more important saints have been retained. Prior to Vatican 2, when all masses were said in Latin, to the non Latin speaking laity I think that praying the various devotions to the saints must have been a way to stay focused during mass. So there would have been greater enthusiasm towards patrons at the time. However, today, there are still patron saints and the celebration of their feasts and solemnities depending on the region and the importance of the saint. For example, the Patroness of Australia is 'Our Lady Help of Christians'.

With respect to your question about the saints having a place in the modern world, I think that it doesn't hurt to have a spiritual role model to imitate. There is a lot that can be learned from their lives and writings, not to mention the fact that they were often martyrs of the faith who went through cruel executions. I also think that they can be a great comfort for those who are sick or dying.

So, in summary, the practice of having a patron saint or praying to one is not as widespread or popular as it was before. However, the church still holds them up to be our role models to imitate, especially Mary. Also, the 'Communion of Saints' is still in the Nicene Creed which we recite each Sunday during the Mass. So they are still an integral part of our beliefs.

Thanks again.

Tishrei

[tishrei5736]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I am by no means an expert on Catholicism but I thought the act of praying to the saints and Mary was to plead intercession for sinners in purgatory so that they may move onto heaven. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me.

Thanks Faithfulservant.

Yes, you are very close but there is a little more to it.

Just to explain it a little better, as Catholics we believe that the church is the 'Mystical Body' of Christ. Furthermore, this mystical body of Christ, the Church, consists of three parts, the Church 'militant' on Earth (those who are alive presently), the Poor Souls in Purgatory (those who need more purification before getting into Heaven) and the Church 'triumphant' in Heaven which includes the Communion of Saints. However, all three components are part of the one body, so 'the holiness of one profits the others' as mentioned in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Section 1475). So, as one part improves itself or receives more graces, so do the other parts because all are part of the one mystical body. With respect to the Communion of Saints we believe that there is a special 'link of charity' between the Communion of Saints, the Poor Souls in Purgatory and the Pilgrims on Earth. So, having recourse to the Communion of Saints allows the contrite sinner to be 'promptly purified of the punishments for sin' (again from the Catechism). This may be hard to understand for new comers to Catholicism, but it is what we believe, especially with respect to the purification in Purgatory.

So, in answer to your statement, it actually goes both ways, as we pray for the poor souls in purgatory they also pray for our souls. Also, praying to the saints doesn't automatically move one into Heaven, it only speeds up the purification process. Furthermore, praying to the Saints for assistance, in particular Mary, greatly assists not only the Poor Souls in Purgatory but also helps us pilgrims on the journey of our life on Earth.

I hope this helps clarify it a little bit better.
I'd welcome any other Catholics out there to correct me or to add anything else to these comments. None of this stuff was ever taught to us in Catholic school so I've had to resort to the Catechism.....

On another note, to those who think that Catholics 'worship' Mary and the Saints, this is not true. We worship God alone and only give 'veneration' to the saints. According to St. Thomas Aquinas the 'worship' we give to God is infinitely greater than the 'veneration' we give to the saints.

Thanks,
Tishrei.

[Basstian]

There are points I like to call salvation issues I believe that both Catholic and Protestants have enough of to make it. Like the woman who touched the hem of Jesus robe and was healed.
Doctrine wise I myself Differ in Drastik ways from both sects.
Reading the history of the Church of Rome is scary to me for alot more reasons than I care to go into I will however point out a few just to hear your input.

Do you believe that the papel power has the authority to change the Bible or the doctrines taught by it ?

One simple example is found in Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father which is in heaven.

Mithraism was one of the for most cults during constantine's time and amongest the Roman soldiers during the time of Christ with the top level leaders title being Pater (father)

Do you believe that ties to these pagen religions may have influenced some of the doctrine you have today and if so is that right?

Saint Innocent I,( yr 402 to 417 )It was during his papacy the ravages of plague and famine were so frightful, and divine help seemed so far off, that papal permission was granted to sacrifice and pray to the pagan deities

Is this kind of papal decision allowed and could it happen again?

I am earnest in wanting to know please do not be offended by the harshness of these questions I mean none