Question:

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 07:44 PM

Imagine for a second that you were a creator. Imagine that you created a world, and on the world you created some ants. Now, try to imagine that you love these ants more than anything else. Try to feel the joy that comes from watching them go about their daily lives. Do you feel it? Now imagine one day you look, and you see you ants heading for danger. You cant talk to them, because even if you could, they would not understand you. How would you save your ants from the pending danger?

path_of_one · 04-19-2005, 08:22 PM

I would have created my ants with an intuitive longing for me from the beginning. This longing would yield the feelings of awe they would get from looking up at the mountains I capped with snow, the feelings of oneness they would experience when they looked into the eyes of one another, and the feelings of profound love they would have when they watched the earth flower each spring.

I would limit my communications with them to ways they would understand (because I know they are limited and I am not), relying on that intuition that I instilled within them, that little bit of my own essence (for I breathed the life into them, and made them in my image), to lead them to rely on me and cling to me, and to recognize that I am much greater than anything they could fathom. And by clinging to me, and being in awesome reverence, they would overcome any obstacle. They would still suffer and face many dangers, but because they intuitively cling to me, they would be open to how I used these experiences to work in them spiritual growth and a greater acceptance of all that I am and all that my divine plans hold, even as they realize they cannot fathom the depths of what I am.

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 10:27 PM

O.................K. And how would you save your ants again? Come on people, lets stick to the script. No ad-libs' please!

path_of_one · 04-19-2005, 10:42 PM

Mmm... I think you are missing the point. If I am the creator, I am (as our Creator is) unlimited in power and foresight. So why cannot the ants be saved by what I have instilled in them- a desire to turn towards me? Or are you proposing that the Creator is bound by an even greater Script? By the way, in saying that the Creator cannot speak with its creation, or that its creation would necessarily fail to comprehend anything it said, you are putting limitations on the creator. It is an odd situation, no offense.

If you meant to gain our beliefs about how the Creator God works by our response to how we ourselves would save our creation if we were creators, you are making a big assumption that is problematic: that the Creator God cannot speak with us, and that the Creator does not have the capacity to instill in us the capacity to understand what we need to know.

Further, you did not specify what dangers you mean. Illness and natural disasters are dangerous, but can be entirely necessary parts of creation, and thus perhaps we should not "save" the ants from these dangers. If you are implying spiritual dangers, then I think my answer also suffices.

Abogado del Diablo · 04-19-2005, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

If you meant to gain our beliefs about how the Creator God works by our response to how we ourselves would save our creation if we were creators, you are making a big assumption that is problematic: that the Creator God cannot speak with us, and that the Creator does not have the capacity to instill in us the capacity to understand what we need to know.

Great point, path. If the law is "written on our hearts," then we can hear it and respond. Now the creator can't make a creature of free will listen and obey that "law," but that's a far cry from not being able to communicate.

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 10:46 PM

OK, I'll answer the following question, then you can go back to answering the initial question, OK? You said:

"Mmm... I think you are missing the point. If I am the creator, I am (as our Creator is) unlimited in power and foresight. So why cannot the ants be saved by what I have instilled in them."

Because the ants broke your law, and because they did, the consequence of their actions seperated them from you. Because they broke your law, what you put in them got polluted. Because of their actions, what you put in them no longer works the way it was designed to. But hey, you still love those little ants, and while they lost their connection with you, you desier to save them from their pending doom.

How would you warn/save them?

Abogado del Diablo · 04-19-2005, 10:51 PM

Get rid of the law. It's keeping the Creator from loving his creation and the Creator can do whatever he wants.

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 10:54 PM

Without Law, there is no order. God is a God of Law and Order. Try jumping from a tall building and see if you stay up. If you do, you would prove that having Law is irrelevant.

Abogado del Diablo · 04-19-2005, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

Without Law, there is no order. God is a God of Law and Order. Try jumping from a tall building and see if you stay up. If you do, you would prove that having Law is irrelevant.

Interesting, I thought God was a God of Love. Seemed to be in your hypothetical anyway.

What to do when the law gets in the way of love . . . what to do . . .

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 11:01 PM

Would a loving God create anything without Laws and Order? Uhh...thinking to myself now, Im reminded of a saying by some dude (I think its Confusious), who said - "Without Laws, and Order, there is only anarchy.

You said it yourself, God is Love!

Abogado del Diablo · 04-19-2005, 11:05 PM

Sure. A loving God could create whatever the loving God wanted to create. What kind of a creator would be limited by the law of gravity? Are you claiming that God is so limited? What kind of creator would be limited in communicating with the one's He loves by a rule of His own making? Are you suggesting that God is so limited?

What kind of loving God would let the "law" get in the way of Love? Wait a sec . . . "Love" isthe law . . . it's all starting to make sense . . .

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 11:09 PM

I wasnt aware this was so hard to grasp. What is so hard to understand that Laws are made to keep order? Is there peace without Law? Without law, how would the the white blood cells in your body carry oxygen to your lungs? Without Law, would anything do what they were designed to do? Wait, never mind - dont even answer that! Someone, anyone, can I please get an answer to the initial question?

Abogado del Diablo · 04-19-2005, 11:13 PM

God is a loving God not liimited by any law but that of Love. As an omnipotent Creator, He is not limited by the law other than His own Love (which is the law, BTW). Why is this so hard to grasp? God is Love.

Love, actually, is all around.

Conscience · 04-19-2005, 11:21 PM

Ohhhhh..I see now. You're misunderstanding me. And I thought I had a way with words - Go figure!? Anyway, I didnt say God is bound by Laws, just that he created laws to keep order. Long story short, when laws are broken, there is a consequence. But, even with that consequence, God is STILL Love!

path_of_one · 04-20-2005, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conscience

Because the ants broke your law, and because they did, the consequence of their actions seperated them from you. Because they broke your law, what you put in them got polluted. Because of their actions, what you put in them no longer works the way it was designed to. But hey, you still love those little ants, and while they lost their connection with you, you desier to save them from their pending doom.

How would you warn/save them?

Hmm... somehow you completely neglected to set all that part up in the original question. All you said was the ants were in danger.

And in response to AdD and your conversation, my own ponderings about how I would behave if I were a creator should be clear in this example:

I once actually had an ant farm as a child. I am not speaking metaphorically. I watched the ants in their little plastic home, and then I realized the limitations I had set on them by keeping them in there. I loved my ants. Yes, literally- I am now a Druid and I really do love nature as persons. Because I loved my ants, I realized that they were living in such a limited world, that they had so much more they could do with their lives if they were not contained for my own amusement. So I set them free.