Question

[4Horsemen]

I would appreciate if anyone could answer the following question regarding the Islamic communities in the United Kingdom. After the recent bombings in London, and looking further back to terrorist activities in New York and Madrid, why is it thet the muslim communities only distance and differentiate themselves from these acts and their perpertrators immediately after the incident, and maybe for a couple of days afterwards? Then the condemnation slowly fades away and we hear nothing in the rhetoric of muslims to denounce those of their number who commit such atrocities. It's about time the islamic community in the uk actively worked to stop those in their communities who harbour extremist views, on a permanent basis, not just after a shameful act of terror in order to protect themselves from retribution.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

perhaps it is because it is usually only in these times that other people accuse muslims of being aphilliated with these groups. As many people have recently pointed out, islam is not the only religion which counts terrorists amongst its number.

[Saponification]

I do not know if this show has been broadcast in your country, but if not I suggest you do your best to acquire it: 30 Days. 30 Days is a documentry series by the man who produced Supersize Me. In the third episode of the show he has a devout Christian man life the lifestyle of a Muslim for, as the name of the show suggests, thirty days.

During his thirty days, the Christian man has numerous discussions about this very issue (albiet relating to September 11 and Bali). He is told that if the Muslim community apologises for the actions of Al Qaeda and other similiar organisations, they will essentially be claiming responsibility in the eyes of the rest of the community.

The Muslim community in the UK (or the US, for that matter) are also citizens of that country. They're victims as much as the Christian, Jewish and Sikh communities are... maybe even more so, seeing they suffer from the effects of ignorant hatred and frustration.

How is it their responsibility if someone within their community believes in such wickedness? Chances are, a lot of people who were friends with these guys probably didn't know. And plus, if you start saying "all these people in my community do this" aren't you just making yourself look suspicious as well?

[4Horsemen]

All valid points, but you're missing the vital point, that all the attacks relevant to the United Kingdom and the interests of the free world, have been, and are being carried out by muslims, not christians, jews, sikhs or any other religion. Just as we had a problem in this country with right wing fascist parties, where the responsibility to defeat these movements came from within, ie the white population, the responsibility for subduing Islamic extremism comes from within, ie muslim communities.

[I, Brian]

That's not a valid argument, though - that's like claiming that the Anglican Church is responsible for IRA attacks on Britain (in fact, 30 years ago, the IRA also planted 4 bombs in London, though only two of which went off).

Just as with Christianity, Islam covers a sphere of beliefs and cultural attitudes - there is no single Islamic mindset that all Muslims adhere to, therefore it's mistaken to associate all Muslims with the acts of relatively few extremists.

It's also worth pointing out that the family of one of the London bombers seems to have been entirely unaware of their sons intentions in the first place -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4679001.stm

In such circumstances, how can anyone prevent such actions directly?

[4Horsemen]

Clearly it would be wrong to suggest that the Anglican Church should be held responsible for the IRA terror attacks, but the church worked with the british government to try and diminish the ferocity and presence of the IRA. Coming from a densely populated muslim area, I can tell you that the majority of the muslims between the ages of 15 and 30 that I come in regular contact with, have little or no regard for the powers of government or the authority of the law, as was demonstrated by the Bradford riots of some years ago. That said, the people they do have a modicum of respect for, their elders and communities, should shoulder the responsibility of steering muslim youth away from religious and racial hatred. Also, if the muslim leaders desire to distance themselves from the workings of Al Qaeda et al, why has no fatwa been placed upon Bin Laden, a la Salman Rushdie.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

That's not a valid argument, though - that's like claiming that the Anglican Church is responsible for IRA attacks on Britain (in fact, 30 years ago, the IRA also planted 4 bombs in London, though only two of which went off).

Certainly it’s necessary, laudable and even noble to work to avoid backlash against Muslims. And blanket attributions of blame across such a diverse set of cultures are of course not fair. But I do think it’s fair to question whether the various Muslim communities are doing enough to combat this worldwide syndrome that’s doing untold damage to their faith.

I think the elephant in the room is that there has been from the beginning a significant level of tacit if not overt approval in parts of the Muslim world for these kinds of actions. Millions of Muslims still see themselves as under the thumb or threatened by the West, its economics and its culture. Military actions by the U.S. and Israel over the decades – whatever their justification – have resulted in thousands of Muslim casualties. So in that sense, it’s not surprising that many Muslims, even while they condemn terrorism in general, on an emotional level may feel that it’s only a kind of payback.

As always, when politics comes into play I think there’s a lack of straightforward honestly on all sides, and not nearly enough discussion of the huge cultural gap between the West and Islam and the backlog of historical grievances. The idea of a “war on terror”, that is, a war on a particular tactic, I’m afraid has only led to a less fruitful discussion of the real roots of all this. It’s natural to want to isolate the extremists and Western cities under threat have no choice but to do so, but the dialogue will only advance I think when both sides are more honest: when the West faces the depth of its involvement in the historical grievances in the Muslim world – and realizes that the military solution ultimately will not work – and when Muslims themselves, in whatever form, from whatever centres, work to clean up their own act, and heal the soul of their faith.

All three monotheistic faiths hold in one form or another that only truth will set us free, so while being alert to all the cultural sensitivities let’s have just a little more honest truth.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Just as with Christianity, Islam covers a sphere of beliefs and cultural attitudes - there is no single Islamic mindset that all Muslims adhere to, therefore it's mistaken to associate all Muslims with the acts of relatively few extremists.

It seems that this just can't be said enough right now. It seems to me that the backlash against Islam, insidiously disguised as "concern" over how the moderates do not come out more strongly against the actions of the terrorists, is especially pronounced, moreso than after 9/11. The moderates are saying this is not Islam--they seem to be saying it every chance they get on the airwaves. They do not want the name of Islam tarnished by these atrocities any more than the vast majority of Christians want to be associated with abortion clinic bombings and the other brutalities pointed out above by I, Brian.

And Devadatta, I think you are correct in pointing out that this is political. This is not Islam, it is highjacked religion aimed at stirring up hatreds and violence between the east and the west. Wish I knew a solution to it all, but as it is I know that growing distrust of all Muslims or any other religion is not the answer.

peace,
lunamoth

[Travis_MI]

Devadatta-

I wholeheartedly agree with you -- when the U.S. administration tries to explain terrorist actions as being motivated by a hatred of freedom or democracy, as something so kind of *crazy* and nonsensical as "they hate us because of who we are" (whatever *that's* supposed to mean), no progress can be made. I think that unless we realize and then own up to our (the U.S.'s) involvement in various and sundry grievances against the Arab world, this cycle of violence and hatred will continue.

It is my belief that the U.S. is essentially accelerating the creation of an entirely new generation of terrorists - the extremist Shi'ite cleric explains to his followers about how they are persecuted by the Zionist West, and as proof can simply point to Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any number of other places (that I'm sure exist but I'm not clever enough to know about). It's just so sad and frustrating.. it seems a problem without a solution. The stupid thing is, the faiths that seem to have the most conflict amongst their groups: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity -- essentially worship the very same God. But I suppose this isn't ultimately about God or faith, it's about cultural imperialism and strict legalism, the decadence and excess of the West (particularly the US) clashing with the culture of Islam. Ok, I think I've rambled and ranted enough - I just can't help but wonder if this is something that we'll still be hearing/thinking/praying about in 10, 20, 50 years..

[Bandit]

i have met some nice muslims & seen there sincere apologies for these crimes of others. i dont see it as just political either. i dont think it is an islam thing.

i wonder if a few out there have tons of money paying these people to do these things. then we never see them again.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Travis_MI

But I suppose this isn't ultimately about God or faith, it's about cultural imperialism and strict legalism, the decadence and excess of the West (particularly the US) clashing with the culture of Islam. Ok, I think I've rambled and ranted enough - I just can't help but wonder if this is something that we'll still be hearing/thinking/praying about in 10, 20, 50 years..

Well, yes. No one can claim the moral high ground here. But I don't think we can blame the west for accelerating the terrorism--it's too complicated to paint with such broad brush strokes. It's an escalating situation with all parties speeding things up. Perhaps there are some hawks whose goal is to bring things to a head, but they appear to be on both sides.



lunamoth

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Travis_MI

It is my belief that the U.S. is essentially accelerating the creation of an entirely new generation of terrorists - the extremist Shi'ite cleric explains to his followers about how they are persecuted by the Zionist West, and as proof can simply point to Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any number of other places

Indeed - and recently it was suggested that at least one of the London bombers went to training camps in Afghanistan. It's worth remembering which nation originated those camps and why.

Anyway, as this topic doesn't touch on Islam directly, I'm going to move it to the Politics section.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Despite the excellent posts made here, I do think there is a valid point to be addressed in 4horsemen's question.

With no prejudice whatsoever intended, I do sometimes think after such attacks that we all spend so much effort telling each other islam is not to blame that we loose sight of the fact that these terrorists are (or think they are) quite devout muslims and that a conserted effort by muslim clerics around the world could go a long way to discourage such attacks.

I met an Indian guy at university and we became quite good friends, being British I felt compelled to apologise to him for the occupation and oppression of his country by my country. Probably quite silly but I felt it was necessary. In the west we are encouraged to feel responsibe for the actions of our governments, past and present. Many people on this very thread have posted saying that this whole situation is the fault of we westerners for the actions of our countries in the middle east. A sense of cultural responsibility is not a bad thing, it may sometimes be misplaced, but not bad.

Thats my opinion anyway.

Forever
Awaiting The Fifth.

[Vajradhara]

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."


~Great Soul Gandhi