Question

[Silas]

Psa. 53:3, "there is no one that doeth good, no not one."

There has never been a good man, just poor and pittiful people that has been saved by grace and then trasformed to do good.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Silas

Psa. 53:3, "there is no one that doeth good, no not one."

There has never been a good man, just poor and pittiful people that has been saved by grace and then trasformed to do good.

What is it that transforms people, Silas? God, Christ, and Spirit, maybe. That's the way I view it, bro. We're more similar than you think...


Much Love,

[Silas]

What trasforms people is a change of nature which entails death and ressurrection. If our old nature has died in Christ, we were burried and now have been born again in Him and is a new creation in Christ, which will grow into perfection through santificiation to glorification. God does this when He changes our heart from stony to a heart of flesh, puts His Spirit in us and causes us to walk in His statues (Ezk. 36.26-27). Its starts when God does it and its a life process where God does the work ensuring we dont fall away.

[Cage]

I couldn't have said it better, Silas...


Much Love,

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

Psa. 53:3, "there is no one that doeth good, no not one."

There has never been a good man, just poor and pittiful people that has been saved by grace and then trasformed to do good.

Wrong. there have been righteous men in God's eyes. Look it up. at the moment of the author's writings there may have been no good man...

[Cage]

Righteuos maybe, but not good, Quahom. Jesus tells us so..."There is none good, but the father" Jesus even neglected to suggest that he was good...

17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Love,

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Wrong. there have been righteous men in God's eyes. Look it up. at the moment of the author's writings there may have been no good man...

Nah, thats not true bro. Paul said in Romans 3:10..."There is no one righteous, not even one." Jesus also said it, "There is none good but God." The only people made righteous were/are/will be, those who God has counted in Christ' righteousness.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

What trasforms people is a change of nature which entails death and ressurrection. If our old nature has died in Christ, we were burried and now have been born again in Him and is a new creation in Christ, which will grow into perfection through santificiation to glorification. God does this when He changes our heart from stony to a heart of flesh, puts His Spirit in us and causes us to walk in His statues (Ezk. 36.26-27). Its starts when God does it and its a life process where God does the work ensuring we dont fall away.

I don't buy that. Our old nature is what we are. God uses our "nature" to His Glory. Therein may lie the death of the old, and up with the new. But we are still the same. Just with a new perspective. Paul is a perfect example. Nothing about him changed, except his goal. Instead of killing radicals, he became an advocate for those "radicals" Nothing else changed.

He was still obtuse, still an ass, still defiant, still judgemenatal, and still a generous man. Nothing about his character changed, but his heart...

you people still don't get it. God does not change will, only hearts...

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I don't buy that. Our old nature is what we are. God uses our "nature" to His Glory. Therein may lie the death of the old, and up with the new. But we are still the same. Just with a new perspective. Paul is a perfect example. Nothing about him changed, except his goal. Instead of killing radicals, he became an advocate for those "radicals" Nothing else changed.

He was still obtuse, still an ass, still defiant, still judgemenatal, and still a generous man. Nothing about his character changed, but his heart...

you people still don't get it. God does not change will, only hearts...

Does this mean that we are responsible for what we pursue after he changes heart, or does the change of heart do that itself? I pursue different things now, I was once an ass, now I'm not, [for the most part] I once loved to fight, now I don't, I once took pleasure in drugs of all sorts, now I am clean. My heart changed, and so did my behavior, and I credit God for this fact.


Love,

[Silas]

I don't buy that. Our old nature is what we are.

Kinda sorta. The Christian paradox is that He is a new man in Christ (2 Corinthians 6:18) while still living in the old body with all its wretechedness and inablity to please God. Romans 6,7, and 8, talk about this, I think?

God uses our "nature" to His Glory. Therein may lie the death of the old, and up with the new. But we are still the same. Just with a new perspective.

God kills the old nature in Christ...I think thats also 2 Cor. 6? But we're certianly not the same. If you sin habitually it proves you're not born again because a Christian cannot sin habitually (all of 1John).

Paul is a perfect example. Nothing about him changed, except his goal. Instead of killing radicals, he became an advocate for those "radicals" Nothing else changed.

Paul grew in santification towards the direction of perfection. He also said that it is God's will for all of us to grow in santification that we may become holy as God is holy. Without Holiness no one can see God (Heb. 12:14).

He was still obtuse, still an ass, still defiant, still judgemenatal, and still a generous man. Nothing about his character changed, but his heart...

God promises to change a sinner into a saint. He will be hated by the world, yes, but Loved by God because he will love what God loves, namely holiness. If a Christian isnt growing, he isnt a Christian (all of 1 John).

you people still don't get it. God does not change will, only hearts...

Pior to God changing our hearts, the will was in bondage to sin and thus choose what was in its nature to choose - sin. God freed our wills when He changed our hearts. Now because of that we're free from bonage of sin (Romans 6).

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Silas

Nah, thats not true bro. Paul said in Romans 3:10..."There is no one righteous, not even one." Jesus also said it, "There is none good but God." The only people made righteous were/are/will be, those who God has counted in Christ' righteousness.

Paul was speaking for himself and his own time...bro. God decride other in the Old testament. He personally named those that were righteous.

Before Jesus' walk on earth, there were righteous people, and God took note of that fact. Today there are righteous people who know Christ not, and God the Father takes note of that fact.

Perhaps that is the point of the Bible which states "The laws are written on the hearts of every man..."

I'm gonna vent another issue to US CHRISTIANS. Who the hell wan'ts to listen to a bunch of self righteous hypocrits (sp), telling everyone else they are doomed to hell, when we are like one step away from the same place?

Mee has his own agenda (recruit more JWs), Jean likes to do what Ciel likes to do and force stones before a foot path, trying to see who will trip up, then sit back in smug superiority. Wil isn't much better. At least Stephen was straight up from the get go, and the Martin gal, asked the hard questions, but at least tried to listen to the answers.

And Silias. Don't tell me again that what I quote isn't true...unless you have damn good proof...that really pisses me off. You don't know your bible as well as you think you do.

And for the cheap seats. God found Lot and David righteous...chew on that for awhile.

v/r

Joshua

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Cage

Does this mean that we are responsible for what we pursue after he changes heart, or does the change of heart do that itself? I pursue different things now, I was once an ass, now I'm not, [for the most part] I once loved to fight, now I don't, I once took pleasure in drugs of all sorts, now I am clean. My heart changed, and so did my behavior, and I credit God for this fact.


Love,

We are responsible regardless of God's input or not.

You are still Cage...only you have a different attitude. Same power, same character, same personality, same weaknesses, same strengths, same phisique, same shape, and same face. Only now, there is a difference within you. And in short order (trust me), people will notice a difference, and actually ask you "what is different"?

You will not, and do not feel or see anything different about yourself...but others will.

mark my words

There will come a time when someone will ask you something as to your change. When you say "I found Jesus". They are going to laugh it off. Crunch time. What do you do next?

Grinn, shrug the shoulders while lifting the arms and simply reply "it's true".

Who the hell can argue with that?

Now here is the problem, that you don't seem to have an answer to. "WhY?"

That is one you have to tackle all on your own.

But you can come here for prayers and advice you don't need.

v/r

Joshua

[path_of_one]

Apparently Jesus thought there were some good people around, for He said:

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." - Matthew 5:45 KJV

And again:
"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brigeth forth good things" - Matthew 12:35 KJV

There are lots and lots more. Just do a quick perusal for the word "good" used to describe people in the Bible.

I think what is problematic here is that you are defining "good" in only one way, making the Bible seem contradictory. If Jesus says none are good but God, and yet also talks about good people (see the above quotes), it appears problematic.

In fact, these passages are not problematic or contradictory at all. It's just you have to dig deeper than the basic English, which is notoriously problematic for translating the Greek. One helpful resource in this endeavor is the Amplified Bible, since it will explain further what the Greek actually means.

In the passages quoted above, no further explanation was necessary. "Good" meant what it generally does in everyday English- decent, nice, kind, unselfish, seeking after what is just and right, etc. In the passage:

"Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt eneter into life, keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17 KJV

Good does not mean the usual connotation of nice, decent, etc. here. It means good as the essence of being, perfectly and completely and wholly and essentially good.

From the Amplified:
"Why do you ask Me about the perfectly and essentially good? There is only One Who is good [perfectly and essentially]- God. If you would enter into the Life, you must continually keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17 Amplified

So you see, there are good people. And yet they are not good in the way that Jesus describes in the particular passage of Matthew 19:17, because there He did not mean good in the normal connotation in English. In most of the uses of the word "good" in the Bible, it means something akin to righteous, decent, kind, following the right path, etc. However, in the particular phrase of Matthew 19:17, "good" means good as the essence of what something is. Only God is good as His very essence. The rest of us, even if we are good in the usual sense, are still impure.

I think these passages and the exploration into the meaning of the Greek shows why it is really important, when interpreting the Bible, to study diligently, using all the resources we have to understand the original context and language of the scripture. English is a problematic language for many passages compared to Greek and Aramaic, and these problems are easy to run into. Fortunately, God gives us the Spirit to guide us spiritually, and our fantastic brains (and Biblical scholars) to produce works that can help us understand the history, culture, and languages of the Bible.

Hopefully this is helpful for you, Silas.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Apparently Jesus thought there were some good people around, for He said:

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." - Matthew 5:45 KJV

And again:
"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brigeth forth good things" - Matthew 12:35 KJV

There are lots and lots more. Just do a quick perusal for the word "good" used to describe people in the Bible.

I think what is problematic here is that you are defining "good" in only one way, making the Bible seem contradictory. If Jesus says none are good but God, and yet also talks about good people (see the above quotes), it appears problematic.

In fact, these passages are not problematic or contradictory at all. It's just you have to dig deeper than the basic English, which is notoriously problematic for translating the Greek. One helpful resource in this endeavor is the Amplified Bible, since it will explain further what the Greek actually means.

In the passages quoted above, no further explanation was necessary. "Good" meant what it generally does in everyday English- decent, nice, kind, unselfish, seeking after what is just and right, etc. In the passage:

"Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt eneter into life, keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17 KJV

Good does not mean the usual connotation of nice, decent, etc. here. It means good as the essence of being, perfectly and completely and wholly and essentially good.

From the Amplified:
"Why do you ask Me about the perfectly and essentially good? There is only One Who is good [perfectly and essentially]- God. If you would enter into the Life, you must continually keep the commandments." - Matthew 19:17 Amplified

So you see, there are good people. And yet they are not good in the way that Jesus describes in the particular passage of Matthew 19:17, because there He did not mean good in the normal connotation in English. In most of the uses of the word "good" in the Bible, it means something akin to righteous, decent, kind, following the right path, etc. However, in the particular phrase of Matthew 19:17, "good" means good as the essence of what something is. Only God is good as His very essence. The rest of us, even if we are good in the usual sense, are still impure.

I think these passages and the exploration into the meaning of the Greek shows why it is really important, when interpreting the Bible, to study diligently, using all the resources we have to understand the original context and language of the scripture. English is a problematic language for many passages compared to Greek and Aramaic, and these problems are easy to run into. Fortunately, God gives us the Spirit to guide us spiritually, and our fantastic brains (and Biblical scholars) to produce works that can help us understand the history, culture, and languages of the Bible.

Hopefully this is helpful for you, Silas.

Thank you for that post, path_of_one. It was quite helpful to me.



Love,

[Silas]

Quahom

Paul was speaking for himself and his own time...bro. God decride other in the Old testament. He personally named those that were righteous. Before Jesus' walk on earth, there were righteous people, and God took note of that fact. Today there are righteous people who know Christ not, and God the Father takes note of that fact.

Scriptures teach that man is made or counted righteous only through faith. The OT saints trusted in the promise to come and the NT saints trusted in the promise that came, Jesus. God imputes Christ' rightouness in His saints and Christ suffered our sins in His body. There's the trade and thats whats makes us righeous. Not we ourselves or anyone else themselves, but it has always been that we are counted righteous in Christ. The book of Romans speak about this a lot. About people being righteous apart from Christ? Impossible with the God of the Bible, for He says that all work not done in faith [in Christ] is sin and that all the good people do apart from Christ is filty rags. God the Father only takes note of people trusting in Jesus. That much is certain from scripture.

Perhaps that is the point of the Bible which states "The laws are written on the hearts of every man..."

It is and for good reason - namely to show that man have no excuse before God, for He knows that EVERY TIME he sins, He does it with knowledge that its wrong since His God given Conscience testifies to the fact that the laws of God are written on His heart.

I'm gonna vent another issue to US CHRISTIANS. Who the hell wan'ts to listen to a bunch of self righteous hypocrits (sp), telling everyone else they are doomed to hell, when we are like one step away from the same place?

"There is no condemnation for those in Christ" God says. Also, Ive never met a self righteous Christian. Only sinners that know that they too deserve to be in the deepest part of Hell, but ONLY by God's grace in Sovereign election, they have been speard. As a result, they become fishers of men, hoping to save other lost men, bearing the reproach of those who call them selfrighteous among other names.

And Silias. Don't tell me again that what I quote isn't true...unless you have damn good proof...that really pisses me off. You don't know your bible as well as you think you do.

Im a young Christian and Im certian I dont know MOST of the BIble at all! That said, I must say that you come off as a really angry person. I want you to know that Jesus likens that to murder. Its a heart issue with God. Hearts that are lustful are liken to be adulterers for lack of chance and hearts that hate are liken to murderers for lack of oppurnity, which is due to God's grace, incidentally. Im not as bad as I can be, you're not as bad as you can be, and Hitler wasnt as bad as he could have been, only because God didnt permit it. Again, its a heart issue with God, not so much what you do physically. What you do physically are reflexs of what your heart desiers. Thats why men are guilty before God. Repent and Trust in Jesus.

And for the cheap seats. God found Lot and David righteous...chew on that for awhile.

OK.