Question

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Hey . . . come on.

What about the imams in Islam? Isn't local and earthly leadership a necessity? The common people don't always have time to study sacred texts, so special people are appointed, or dedicate themselves to do it as a living. When they have problems they go to the local priest, rabbi and imam for guidance and advice.

Pastors, presbyters, priests and rabbis are just like imams -- they are teachers and scholars. We don't worship them.

I don't consider my pastor to be "lord" as I seek a direct relationship with God.


I have heard that in Islam the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel.

Whether or not that is entirely true, it is not so in Christianity. In Christianity the Holy Ghost is God's own Spirit, which means it is essentially God Himself. The reason why the term "Holy Ghost" is used rather than simply "God" is to put God's spiritual influences in context. Christians don't worship an angel.

"Holy Ghost" doesn't mean the same thing in Islam and Christianity. Same name but completely different meanings.

Hi Saltmiester,

In Islam we have Imams and clerics who interpret the Quran and hadith for us, and we follow them, but what is meant by 'taking them as Lords' is when these 'Leaders' start allowing and prohibiting according to their own accord and not according to what God has revealed, then basically the followers attach to them an attribute which is only fit for God, which is that of the "law maker", and thus they take them as Lords.

Here is what Allah says in the Quran:

They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! [Holy Quran, 9:31]

And here is the tafsir [contextual interpretation] of the above verse:

They have taken their rabbis, the scholars among the Jews, and their monks, the devout among the Christians, as lords beside God - following them in making lawful what God has made unlawful and making unlawful what He has made lawful - and the Messiah, son of Mary, when they were not commanded, in the Torah and the Gospel, except to worship One God: there is no god except Him; glory be to Him, as an affirmation of His transcendence [high], above what they associate [with Him]. [9:31]

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

...`Adi went to the Messenger of Allah wearing a silver cross around his neck. The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah; "They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah". `Adi commented, "I said, `They did not worship them.''' The Prophet said, "Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them".

`Abdullah bin `Abbas and several others said about the explanation of,

(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah...) that the Christians and Jews obeyed their monks and rabbis in whatever they allowed or prohibited for them. This is why Allah said,

(while they were commanded to worship none but One God), Who, whatever He renders prohibited is the prohibited, whatever He allowed is the allowed, whatever He legislates, is to be the law followed, and whatever He decides is to be adhered to;

(None has the right to be worshipped but He. Hallowed be He above what they associate (with Him).) Meaning, exalted, sanctified, hallowed above partners, equals, aids, rivals or children, there is no deity or Lord worthy of worship except Him.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

[Abubakar]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I have heard that in Islam the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel.

Saltmeister

I am sorry but you seem a little confused.

This in just not true.

I would question anything that you get from that source.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Abubakar

Saltmeister

I am sorry but you seem a little confused.

This in just not true.

I would question anything that you get from that source.

I only said that's what I've heard.

But regardless of whether or not what I heard was true, my point was that the Holy Spirit may not be the same thing in Islam as in Christianity, even though the words are the same. Concerning what Abdullah was saying about associating partners with God, my point was that in Christianity the "Holy Spirit" was not necessarily a separate entity in or apart from God, but was most probably supposed to refer to a "mode of interaction" between God and human beings.

Considering you've told me that what I heard was wrong, could you tell me what "Holy Spirit" really means in Islam?

Originally Posted by Abdullah

In Islam we have Imams and clerics who interpret the Quran and hadith for us, and we follow them, but what is meant by 'taking them as Lords' is when these 'Leaders' start allowing and prohibiting according to their own accord and not according to what God has revealed, then basically the followers attach to them an attribute which is only fit for God, which is that of the "law maker", and thus they take them as Lords.

I would say this is not how Christianity and Judaism are supposed to work.

It's a bit of a tragedy when religious leaders start trying to control and manipulate the ones they are supposed to guide and enlighten. Sometimes it's only because they're afraid that they'll appear weak if they don't provide us with the answers. They are afraid that if they aren't able to provide us with the answers we want, all the time, non-stop, that people will stop coming to see them.

As a Christian I'd say it's not the ideal in Christianity, and a Jew would probably say the same thing.

The way people may approach a religion is not an indication that that is how a religion really works. Sometimes, due to our limited scope of knowledge, understanding and experience as human beings, we follow the bad example of those around us without evaluating our own actions. This applies to both the leaders and the common people. We get locked into a vicious circle where we try to please and impress our fellow co-religionists. We do this in the belief that this serves the agenda of the religions we follow when we are really just trying to fit in with the rest of the crowd (or mob).

However, in Christianity, there may be an exception with Jesus as he is considered to be Messiah. This makes him special from a Christian point of view. I am aware that Muslims also regard him as Messiah, but the meaning of "Messiah" may be completely different to a Christian as for a Muslim. I have a fair idea of what a Muslim would say about this (surprise me or don't say anything if you're afraid you'll simply blurt out the obvious), so just for now let's just say that ideas and concepts with the same name often have completely different meanings in Islam and Christianity. So Christians come from Mars and Muslims come from Jupiter, or . . . whatever you like.

[Abdullah]

Hi Saltmiester,

I think brother Abu-Bakr may not have heard the Angel Jibreel [Gabriel] being reffered to as "the holy spirit" by Muslims, as generally the angel Jibreel [as] is reffered to by his name [Gibreel] by the Muslim Learned and laymen.

But you are right that in Islam, 'the holy spirit' is believed to be the angel Jibreel [as].

In arabic, the angel gibreel [as] is reffered to as "Ruh ul Qudus', which translates in english as "the holy spirit".

Allah says in ther Quran:

"When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou speakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity..." [5:110]

The Great Muffasireens [qualified interpreters of the Quran] like Ibn Kathir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Abbas, Al Tabari, agree that the above mention of "the holy spirit" in verse 5:110, which Allah says he strengthened the prophet Jesus [pbuh] with, was, the angel Jibreel [as].

Also Allah says in Surah 97 - Al Qadr THE NIGHT OF POWER

1 We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:
2 And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?
3 The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
4 Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by God's permission, on every errand:
5 Peace!...This until the rise of morn!

It can be seen on verse 4 that Allah again refers to 'the spirit',that will decend to the earth, acompanying the angels, and this 'spirit' is regarded as the Arch angel Gibreel [as] by the Islamic Scholars.

Here are the tafsir's of verse 5:110, and verse 97:4:

Mention, when God said, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour to you and to your mother, be thankful for it; when I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit, Gabriel, to speak to people in the cradle... [5:110]

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑÝÇÓíÑ

The angels and the Spirit, namely, Gabriel, descend in it, on that night, by the leave of their Lord... [97:4]

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Peace.

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

The Christians and jews regard people of other faiths to be spiritually impure as well, and I suppose the same could be said about the general major faiths out there.

Hope that helps

Peace.

While reading my Bible today I ran across a passage that instantly sparked my memory of this specific post. Here's what the passage said:

Peter told them, "You know it is against the Jewish laws for me to come into a Gentile home like this. But God has shown me that I should never think of anyone as impure" (Acts 10:28).