Question

[Pico]

How do those Muslims who think if you kill an infidel then you're guaranteed access to heaven justify such a beleif?

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Pico

How do those Muslims who think if you kill an infidel then you're guaranteed access to heaven justify such a beleif?

Islam does not allow a Muslim to kill an infiel for nothing in the time of peace when there is no declared war already in progress. Islam is a religion of peace and unlike other religions its Book, Quran, is full of bright arguments so its followers need not kill who don't believe Islam or wage a war against them, in fact Islam prospers in the time of peace as then Muslims are afforded oppurtunity to win over other religions with arguments and Quran is full of those arguements. Islam being a rational religion allows to defend Muslims in special circumstances when the enemies don't let them live in peace and have attacked them and that only with certain conditions. This is clearly mentioned in Quran:
[22:40] Permission to take up arms is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged and Allah, indeed, has power to help them. -
[22:41] Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly, only because they said, 'Our Lord is Allah.' And if Allah had not repelled some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft remembered, would surely have been destroyed. And Allah will, surely, help him who helps Him. Allah is, indeed, Powerful, Mighty - [22:42] Those who, if We establish them in the earth, will observe Prayer and pay the Zak›t and enjoin good and forbid evil. And with Allah rests the final issue of all affairs.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

[Abubakar]

Originally Posted by Pico

How do those Muslims who think if you kill an infidel then you're guaranteed access to heaven justify such a beleif?

Hi Pico

As I have never met anyone who subscribes to this belief then I really can't answer your question. I would imagine they suffer the same sort of blindness as those people who burnt witches or the miriad of other attrocities that have been done in the name of Religions that say, do not kill or only fight if you are attacked.

[Pico]

Doesn't it say something about killing Christians and Jews in the Quran?

I think it's Surah 5:51, and 9:5

[Abubakar]

Originally Posted by Pico

Doesn't it say something about killing Christians and Jews in the Quran?

I think it's Surah 5:51, and 9:5

Surah 5:51 says nothing about killing Christians and Jews.

I suggest that you read Surah 9:5 in context in order to understand it.

Are you just stirring or do you have a serious enquiry about Islams attitude to watfare and violent conflict?

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Abubakar

Surah 5:51 says nothing about killing Christians and Jews.

I suggest that you read Surah 9:5 in context in order to understand it.

Are you just stirring or do you have a serious enquiry about Islams attitude to watfare and violent conflict?

This is a serious inquiry. Muslims claiming Allah commanded them to kill all infidels is a serious matter.

[Amica]

Hello Pico.

When the Holy Qur'an was revealed its followers were ostricized, attacked, killed, raped, driven out of their homes. First followers of Islam in Arabia endured great tribulations because they proclaimed belief in One God (Allah=The God, alluding only to the Oness of One God) and denounced the idols. Later, God the Merciful ALLOWED Muslims to defend themselves. Defending themselves meant killing those who intended to kill them.

Qur'an was not given all at once, but over a long period of time (10+ years). Chapter by chapter. Each chapter relfects its historical time and the contexts. Each ayat (statement) from the Qur'an that speaks of war and war activities reflects the situations Muslims found themselves in.

You will find that even in the Holy Bible (the Old Testament) God orders Israelites how to behave in war situations. In some cases rather harshly it is described that Israelites should do some acts of killing towards the unbelieving people (i.e. kill all women, elderly and children, not to leave anything alive).

In the case of Muslims, Qur'an does not speak of immmediate attack on the people who simply reject the Truth. Rather, it presents Muslims with the fact that they should try peacefuly to part ways from the unbelievers. Finally, if they are attacked and their freedom to practice Islam is shaken, they have right to defend themselves and to fight back.

Some among the Muslims use certain Qur'anic statements to pursue their own agendas, but ignore the fact that if no one is attacking them, they should not cause mischief first at all.

In todays time, we must objectively take a look at the world politics and events, and determine the following: 1) who is/was attacked first, 2) whose believes are threatened simply because of the religion, 3) what is the meaning of the wars? Perhaps some more questions.

Another thing to consider is that while the majority of the world peoples individualized themselves through the political/geographic borders between them. Muslim countries did the same, but the islamic consciousness of the Muslims is still one. That is why we see today that Muslims are feeling attacked everywhere when a country with majority Muslim population is being attacked.

[bananabrain]

but the islamic consciousness of the Muslims is still one.

nonsense. for all the talk about the 'umma, you only have to look on the "sunni vs shi'a" thread, or at anything where people are discussing ahmadiyya, ismailis, salafiyyah or sufism, to see just how little that appears to fit the facts. look at the sectarian violence in iraq. islamic consciousness is very clearly fragmented - when people talk about this they seem rather to mean "people who agree with me". in that there's not much difference between islam and other faiths.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Abubakar]

Originally Posted by Pico

This is a serious inquiry. Muslims claiming Allah commanded them to kill all infidels is a serious matter.

That is not an answer to the question that I posted.

I asked if you were making a serious enquiry or were just attempting to stir up conflict.

[Abdullah]

pico,

Here is Islam's Attitude towards war:

"Fight in the way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond limits. God does not love those who go beyond limits" [Quran, 2:190]

"Allah does not forbid you to be kind ( tabarru, birr) and equitable (tuqsitu, qist) to those who had neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact Allah loves the equitable. (60:8) Allah only forbids you to make friends (wali) those who fought you on account of your faith and drove you out of your homes and backed up others in your expulsion. Those who will take them for friends are indeed the wrongdoers." ( Quran, 60: 9)

The above Quranic verses show that Muslims are only allowed to fight in self-defense against those who fight them.

And here are the ethics of war:

"...in Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battle fields and engage nobly...The Prophet Muhammed [sm] said: "Do not kill women or children or non-combatants, and do not kill old people or religious people", and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbi's. And he said "Do not cut down fruit bearing trees and do not poison the well of your enemies. ...". [Quote of Shiekh Hamza Yusuf, San Hose Mercury News, sep 15, 2001]

The Prophet [sm] adressed a Muslim army who were about to go to war, in the following terms:

"Go to war in adherance to the religion of God. Never touch the elderly, women or children. Allways improve their situation and be kind to them. God loves those who are sincere" [Ahmad, diya'al-Din. alKamushKhanawi, Ramuz al-Ahadith. vol 1, 84/8]

The Messenger of Allah [sm] also clarified the attitude a Muslim soldier must adopt, even in the middle of a raging battle, in the following terms:

"Do not kill children. avoid them people who devote themselves to worshiping in churches! Never murder women and the elderly. Do not set trees on fire or cut them down. Never destroy houses!" [Ahmad, Diya'al-Din alkamushKhanawi, Ramuz al-Ahadith, vol 1, 76/12]

In Sahih Bukhari, Book of Jihad, Chapter 147, hadith 257-258, it says:

"A woman was found killed during one of the Apostle of God's battles. so the Apostle of God forbade the killing of women and children"

Abu Bakar As-Siddique [ra], the first Caliph of Islam, and one of the rightly guided caliphs, gave the following command to his army before the first Syrian expedition:

"Stop O people, that I may give you ten rules to keep by heart: Do not commit treachery, nor depart from the right path. You must not mutilate, nither kill a child or aged man or woman. Do not destroy a palm tree, nor burn it with fire and do not cut a fruitfull tree. You must not slay any of the flock or herds or the camels, save for your subsistence. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them to that which they have devoted their lives. You are likely, likewise, to find people who will present to you meals of many kinds. You amy eat, but do not forget to mention the name of Allah". [Tabari, Ta' rikh, 1, 1850, cited in Majid Khadduri, War and Peace in the Law of Islam, John Hopkins Press, Balitmore, 1955, pg. 102]

Peace.

[Pico]

Ah, I see.

Question:

Originally Posted by Abdullah

"Allah does not forbid you to be kind ( tabarru, birr) and equitable (tuqsitu, qist) to those who had neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact Allah loves the equitable.

Does that mean "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" kind of thing?

That was enlightening. Any idea as to how someone can think they are doing Allah's will by killing innocent, religious, or elderly people? Any passage that my be wretched out of context that might cause them to think that?

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Pico

Ah, I see.

Question:



Does that mean "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" kind of thing?

Well we have 'eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth' in our religion, but the above is reffering to defending from agression; this wouldn't fall under the catagory of 'eye for an eye' because it's not about retaliation, but it's about defence; e.g, if an enemy attacks you, then you have no choice but to defend yourself, or otherwise your going to be killed, injured, etc,

And regarding the 'eye for an eye' principle in our religion; Islam teaches that although we have a right for 'eye for an eye' as it serves the course of justice, yet it is better to forgive and forget and return good for evil, i.e, someone unjustly hits me, and I dont hit him back, but rather, when I see him another day, offer him a sweet and smile, etc,

Originally Posted by Pico

That was enlightening. Any idea as to how someone can think they are doing Allah's will by killing innocent, religious, or elderly people? Any passage that my be wretched out of context that might cause them to think that?

only a verry tiny minority of muslim [0.1 percent?] extremists believe that 'eye for an eye' and 'defensive strategies' extends to the enemies civillians/innocents, in retaliation for the enemy killing the Muslim civillians/innocents, but the overwhelming vast majority of muslims [99.9 percent?] reject this and adhere to the correct interpretation of the Jihad verses and hadiths, that even if the enemy kill our civillians/innocents, were not allowed to kill theirs.

There's extremists in every religion, and if a person is hell-bent on being extreme, then he will put a corrupt interpretation to to the verry clear and unmistakable teachings of his religion, so it's not a matter of some Quranic verses or hadiths being easily interpretable in an extreme way, it's a just a matter of some people are deviants in their hearts and they will use the name of religion for their own ends.

hope that helps

Peace

[Pico]

What does it mean for a Christian or Jew to be "unclean"?

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by Pico

What does it mean for a Christian or Jew to be "unclean"?

It means that they are spirtually impure, for they join partners with Allah by obeying their clergy that make what Allah [God] has made unlawfull, lawfull for them, and what Allah has made lawfull, unlawfull for them, so they basically take these priests, Rabbi's, etc, as their Lords besides God.

The Christians also join partners to Allah by attributing divinity to Jesus [pbuh] and the 'Holy Ghost'.

This concept that those who reject the true religion of God [and thus are astray/sinners] are spiritually impure, is not exclusive to the Islamic faith.

The Christians and jews regard people of other faiths to be spiritually impure as well, and I suppose the same could be said about the general major faiths out there.

Hope that helps

Peace.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Abdullah

It means that they are spirtually impure, for they join partners with Allah by obeying their clergy that make what Allah [God] has made unlawfull, lawfull for them, and what Allah has made lawfull, unlawfull for them, so they basically take these priests, Rabbi's, etc, as their Lords besides God.

Hey . . . come on.

What about the imams in Islam? Isn't local and earthly leadership a necessity? The common people don't always have time to study sacred texts, so special people are appointed, or dedicate themselves to do it as a living. When they have problems they go to the local priest, rabbi and imam for guidance and advice.

Pastors, presbyters, priests and rabbis are just like imams -- they are teachers and scholars. We don't worship them.

I don't consider my pastor to be "lord" as I seek a direct relationship with God.

Originally Posted by Abdullah

The Christians also join partners to Allah by attributing divinity to Jesus [pbuh] and the 'Holy Ghost'.

I have heard that in Islam the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel.

Whether or not that is entirely true, it is not so in Christianity. In Christianity the Holy Ghost is God's own Spirit, which means it is essentially God Himself. The reason why the term "Holy Ghost" is used rather than simply "God" is to put God's spiritual influences in context. Christians don't worship an angel.

"Holy Ghost" doesn't mean the same thing in Islam and Christianity. Same name but completely different meanings.