Question about Jesus and John - Page 2

Basstian · 03-10-2005, 09:53 AM

About the myths
From the Garden on mankind has been given prophecy of the messiah Abraham and His sacrifice of Isaac the Lambs slain for sin etc etc etc all point towards Gods Plan for Jesus.
Counterfeit is not a new princible in decieving people. Satan Knows scripture better than us and is more than likely much better at interpretating prophecy than us too.
My theory is he is not only the father of lies but maybe the father of counterfeits too. Is it possible the myths are just that. Counterfeits meant to decieve men so they wouldnt recognize the truth?

Point is I am not going to burn all my money because the 7-11 found a fake 20 dollar bill. And I am not going to discount the Bible because Greeks saw doves.

didymus · 03-10-2005, 08:54 PM

Basstian, I don't think I follow you on that one. What is counterfeit and what do you propose satan is lying about?

Basstian · 03-11-2005, 01:25 AM

Quote:

yes i am familiar with the godman myths from way back egypt and rome and even before Abraham and i think that is kind of what happened too, at least from the religious aspect of it, but not from the bible aspect of it.

I see alot of these myths as satan counterfeiting what he saw was going to happen just another way to deceive the mass and hide the truth behind a lie.
It was easy to lead Gods people into Idol worship with false gods that seemed to fit bits and pieces of prophecy This is the counterfeiting I am talking about and I believe why we see so many similiar stories from cultures all over the world.
Sorry I was tired when I posted that should have used the quote to keep us on track lol

didymus · 03-11-2005, 01:45 AM

So are you saying that all cultures that used idols were doing so because satan was behind it? I think I know what you're saying but am unsure. Does this tie into the virgin birth myth at all?

Bandit · 03-11-2005, 02:33 AM

i think satan is behind it too. Satan knows the whole plot better than us all and he has had 6000 years to decieve men.

God can make a man anyway He wants to make one. No reason to limit God and his power through creation and making whatever He wants to make and however he wants to make it.
You have an issue with the virgin birth Didymus, for some reason that bothers you, almost as much as the ones who claim the virgin birth is what made Jesus without sin. I could really care less wether it was a virgin birth because it has nothing to do with salvation and what God intended to accomplish through Jesus.
This is the number one commandment...to have no other Gods before Him. People make up gods in there mind and yes that becomes an idol. God was constantly after Israel about this. Anything to detour the one God.

the problem with a counterfeit bill is, it looks idenitical and you do not know it is a bad bill until you go to spend it. then it is too late and you have been taken.

didymus · 03-11-2005, 05:17 PM

Actually Bandit the virgin birth doesn't bother me. It is only an observation I made. I believe anything as spectacular as a virgin birth would have been recorded by author of Mark and Paul would have commeneted on it also. If you believe in it that's cool.

I still do not follow the logic of yourself and Basstian. What do you say satan is behind. What counterfeit are we speaking of here? In what way is he deceiving us? Be specific please.

Bandit · 03-11-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

Actually Bandit the virgin birth doesn't bother me. It is only an observation I made. I believe anything as spectacular as a virgin birth would have been recorded by author of Mark and Paul would have commeneted on it also. If you believe in it that's cool.

I still do not follow the logic of yourself and Basstian. What do you say satan is behind. What counterfeit are we speaking of here? In what way is he deceiving us? Be specific please.

i cant explain it. Have you ever been lied to? have you ever been given a counterfeit bill? Satan is a liar (the father of lies) and deciever and can persuade and influence us to believe a lie, wether it be in gossip, mischief, books, accusations, that is what I mean.

i dont see the vigin birth as anything spectacular or so important as religion has made it out to be. there is a reason for it why it happened that way. that is most likely why it was not written very much about. the death burial and resurrection is spectacular. the life of Jesus is spectacular to me.
the birth of Jesus was a MEANS OF ARRIVAL not a magic trick. I think it was supposed to be quiet otherwise Herod would have found Jesus when he passed the decree to kill the males 2 and under. The same thing with John the baptist.
Like I am so sure Mary would go around broadcasting something like that. I think Mary and Elizabeth were brought together at that time because they both experienced a similiar thing, sort of like a witness or edification to both of them.
I dont believe the bible lies.

didymus · 03-11-2005, 08:33 PM

your satan theory is still fuzzy to me. why can't you explain it better? sure i've been lied to. how does that tie in to this thread?

How can you consider a resurrection spectacular and not a virgin birth? This to me is equally spectacular. I think you are right that Mary may have kept quiet about it. Mark was written 20-30 years after Jesus died. Paul's letters were written 20 years later. If they were trying to bring people to christ they would have mentioned his virgin birth because that is a detail you wouldn't leave out.

Bandit · 03-11-2005, 09:19 PM

because the birth did not bring salvation. the cross did.

you will just have to see satan however you see it. if you cannot understand he is the father of lies, then i dont know what else to tell you.

this is what Paul said.
Gal4:4"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law."

didymus · 03-11-2005, 09:53 PM

actually I don't see satan in any of this. That is why I keep asking why you refer to him. How does satan apply to anything we are discussing?

Bandit · 03-11-2005, 11:10 PM

i am not going to debate with gnostics. then you wonder why christians dont want to talk with gnostics. they dont know when to stop.

didymus · 03-12-2005, 12:07 AM

Bandit, i'm not gnostic. All I did was ask you to clarify what you were saying because it was unclear to me. How do you see this as going on and on?

didymus · 03-12-2005, 12:17 AM

Ok, i thought about it. are you proposing that satan is lying to me through the Bible? You said satan knows scripture better than us( or maybe basstian said it)my point is that my observation was based off books in the bible. no other source was involved. this is why i am confused by your statements.

Bandit · 03-12-2005, 12:52 AM

the books that you mention outside of the bible and there authors are indeed gnostic. I spent plenty of time on an ALL gnostic board to know how they operate with the scriptures. I know every song and dance.

I asked a question who do you say that Jesus is. Your answer was the answer of the gnostics and mystics.
The bible does not lie. Satan Lies. and some of the shiny books and authors you read and have mentioned, IMHO are that of the devil and influence many to disreguard what the bible is really about.
I dont know how deep you are into it, but deep enough that I dont think I can help you out of it. No matter how much we discuss and dance around.

The death, burial and resurrection and obedience to the will of God, of the man Jesus is what brought us salvation and can deliver us from death. Not his birth and miracles and healings or some cosmic elctromagnetic force .

Quote:

because the birth did not bring salvation. the cross did.

Bandit · 03-12-2005, 01:04 AM

p.s.
I love you like a brother Didymus, because I know you were brought up in the truth of the bible and I am concerned for the direction you have taken, but I know that I cannot stop you and I will not try to stop you but I cannot walk with you in the same spirit because I feel it is not the right spirit.
You have to do what you have to do. That is all I can say.