Question to all

[Pilgram]

Mick, thank you for your response

Pilgram,

I told my wife that I would bet this individual was writing a paper.

The book? Probably wouldn't read it. There are already a large amount of books written by people that are trying to reinvent religion/spirituality.
Interested in your ideas? Sure. In the seventies, I discarded all beliefs and dogma that I had encountered and looked at what I knew. I found I knew that God existed and that He represented love to me. Because of this, I was able to spend time in college looking at all of the religions. For instance, I met some Islamic individuals and was able to spend time in prayer and discussion with them. They were very spiritual and loving individuals. Without that experience, I could be looking at the crisis in the Mid-East differently.
The concept that God evolves and not man batters my brain. Can't make it work.

Wish you well on your journey,

Mick

**************************************************
Mick, to answer your last comment first, I never said that I thought man does not evolve but only that god, (through man and others beings), man and other beings, all evolve together. I think that we (god, humans and other sentient beings) are all connected and/or ONE and that we are all evolving together. This is simply my belief and I have no evidence nor am I aware that anyone else believes this. I have a suspicion that I am not the first person to think this.

Like you, I too have much in common with Moslems and others who embrace different religions. That is the point of my anticipated book. The problems in the Mid-East and everywhere else are in many ways directly related to the fact that different religions (and the people who embrace them) espouse different dogma as well as identical dogma. My thought and hope is that if people could be satisfied with the dogma that all their religions set forth (love, compassion, forgiveness, etc) and simply stand mute on the dogma that differs from religion to religion, we might be able to live in peace and harmony.

No religion is going to "win" in the sense of converting others therefore it can only be by focusing on the agreed upon beliefs of all religions (this is the important dogma anyway, love, compassion, forgiveness) and leaving behind the areas of disagreement that lead to fear, hate, war and death, that all human beings may come together and live in peace with each other. It is the dogma that differs, no matter how old the myths and metaphors may be, that causes people to strap bombs to themselves and kill in the name of god. It is the minority dogma that leads people to kill doctors, nurses and secretaries in abortion clinics. It is this same minority dogma that causes a supreme court judge to violate the separation of church and state of which he was cleary aware.

All beliefs are dogma. But I guess what I'm asking is that since man does not KNOW very much and since we have to make many assumptions, let us make the minumum number of assumptions that we all agree upon (love, compassion, forgiveness, etc) and leave the other assumptions (where religious dogma disagrees from religion to religion) behind. It is this dogma that differs that is causing us to kill ourselves, mutilate children and fill ourselves and our children with prejudice and hate.

I realize that asking people to consider this is difficult. Everyone wants to be RIGHT. And to release ANY of our beliefs is a difficult undertaking. But the alternative is even more difficult.

Many if not most people seem incapable of peacefully coexisting with others who hold different religious dogma. It is fairly clear that these differences are the main cause of much war, terrorism, greed, hate... and the list goes on.

It is not being suggested that anyone abolish ALL their religious dogma. In fact, Jesus, Buddha and other great teachers and prophets seemed to have implied that all that was important was the BASIC teachings (love, compassion, etc.) and they encouraged people to actually DO those things instead of wasting time TALKING about the more trivial different beliefs that do not feed the hungry, shelter the homeless and comfort the sick and dying.

It is my belief that GOD and the many prophets and teachers who have been inspired by GOD, would want fewer committees and theological studies, debates and degrees and more DOING of the work of the Spirit. But until we put aside our differences, we will have a lot less time and energy to help people who really need help.

I invite you to offer any constructive criticism that you may have. I know that many will find my ideas not to their liking and that's okay. What I'm interested in is hearing from those of you who can see what I'm proposing and have ideas about how to possibly bring this about.

I am not putting down ANY religion or any people. I believe that we are all doing the best we can at any given moment. And since I was brought up in the Catholic religion, I know how difficult it would be for the average Catholic to leave behind all the ritual and comforting repetion. But the imporant thing to any good Catholic should be GOD and doing GOOD. And so it goes for any religion.

Any suggestions, brothers and sisters?

Peace and love, Pilgram

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Pilgram

Mick, thank you for your response

**************************************************
Mick, to answer your last comment first, I never said that I thought man does not evolve but only that god, (through man and others beings), man and other beings, all evolve together. I think that we (god, humans and other sentient beings) are all connected and/or ONE and that we are all evolving together. This is simply my belief and I have no evidence nor am I aware that anyone else believes this. I have a suspicion that I am not the first person to think this.

Like you, I too have much in common with Moslems and others who embrace different religions. That is the point of my anticipated book. The problems in the Mid-East and everywhere else are in many ways directly related to the fact that different religions (and the people who embrace them) espouse different dogma as well as identical dogma. My thought and hope is that if people could be satisfied with the dogma that all their religions set forth (love, compassion, forgiveness, etc) and simply stand mute on the dogma that differs from religion to religion, we might be able to live in peace and harmony.

No religion is going to "win" in the sense of converting others therefore it can only be by focusing on the agreed upon beliefs of all religions (this is the important dogma anyway, love, compassion, forgiveness) and leaving behind the areas of disagreement that lead to fear, hate, war and death, that all human beings may come together and live in peace with each other. It is the dogma that differs, no matter how old the myths and metaphors may be, that causes people to strap bombs to themselves and kill in the name of god. It is the minority dogma that leads people to kill doctors, nurses and secretaries in abortion clinics. It is this same minority dogma that causes a supreme court judge to violate the separation of church and state of which he was cleary aware.

All beliefs are dogma. But I guess what I'm asking is that since man does not KNOW very much and since we have to make many assumptions, let us make the minumum number of assumptions that we all agree upon (love, compassion, forgiveness, etc) and leave the other assumptions (where religious dogma disagrees from religion to religion) behind. It is this dogma that differs that is causing us to kill ourselves, mutilate children and fill ourselves and our children with prejudice and hate.

I realize that asking people to consider this is difficult. Everyone wants to be RIGHT. And to release ANY of our beliefs is a difficult undertaking. But the alternative is even more difficult.

Many if not most people seem incapable of peacefully coexisting with others who hold different religious dogma. It is fairly clear that these differences are the main cause of much war, terrorism, greed, hate... and the list goes on.

It is not being suggested that anyone abolish ALL their religious dogma. In fact, Jesus, Buddha and other great teachers and prophets seemed to have implied that all that was important was the BASIC teachings (love, compassion, etc.) and they encouraged people to actually DO those things instead of wasting time TALKING about the more trivial different beliefs that do not feed the hungry, shelter the homeless and comfort the sick and dying.

It is my belief that GOD and the many prophets and teachers who have been inspired by GOD, would want fewer committees and theological studies, debates and degrees and more DOING of the work of the Spirit. But until we put aside our differences, we will have a lot less time and energy to help people who really need help.

I invite you to offer any constructive criticism that you may have. I know that many will find my ideas not to their liking and that's okay. What I'm interested in is hearing from those of you who can see what I'm proposing and have ideas about how to possibly bring this about.

I am not putting down ANY religion or any people. I believe that we are all doing the best we can at any given moment. And since I was brought up in the Catholic religion, I know how difficult it would be for the average Catholic to leave behind all the ritual and comforting repetion. But the imporant thing to any good Catholic should be GOD and doing GOOD. And so it goes for any religion.

Any suggestions, brothers and sisters?

Peace and love, Pilgram

Namaste Pilgram,

other than the God bit... i'm in complete agreement with you...

[littlemissattitude]

Pilgram...My suggestion, if you are looking for information that looks at all religions on an equal footing, would be that you look into books relating to the anthropology and sociology of religion. Comparative studies especially might be helpful to you.

I wish you luck in your research and writing.

[arthra]

Pilgrim wrote:

It is my belief that GOD and the many prophets and teachers who have been inspired by GOD, would want fewer committees and theological studies, debates and degrees and more DOING of the work of the Spirit. But until we put aside our differences, we will have a lot less time and energy to help people who really need help.

I invite you to offer any constructive criticism that you may have. I know that many will find my ideas not to their liking and that's okay. What I'm interested in is hearing from those of you who can see what I'm proposing and have ideas about how to possibly bring this about.

I am not putting down ANY religion or any people. I believe that we are all doing the best we can at any given moment. And since I was brought up in the Catholic religion, I know how difficult it would be for the average Catholic to leave behind all the ritual and comforting repetion. But the imporant thing to any good Catholic should be GOD and doing GOOD. And so it goes for any religion.

My reply:

This has already been suggested by a few other Baha'is here like Mick and Sassafras but I really think you thinking is very close to Baha'i views as the stress is on how we can build world community and world peace recognizing the same spiritual Source of the great religions.

Baha'is believe that by delving deeply into the spiritual source of your own religion you'll find that common Source and a great fellowship with believers everywhere.

In becoming Baha'is we accept the religions that have gone before without having to reject any....Baha'u'llah faced a lifetime of imprisonment and exile for the sole purpose of the upliftment of humanity and preparing it for establishing the foundations of world peace and unity.

- Art

[Pilgram]

Dear Arthra,

Arthra wrote:
This has already been suggested by a few other Baha'is here like Mick and Sassafras but I really think you thinking is very close to Baha'i views as the stress is on how we can build world community and world peace recognizing the same spiritual Source of the great religions.

Baha'is believe that by delving deeply into the spiritual source of your own religion you'll find that common Source and a great fellowship with believers everywhere.

In becoming Baha'is we accept the religions that have gone before without having to reject any....Baha'u'llah faced a lifetime of imprisonment and exile for the sole purpose of the upliftment of humanity and preparing it for establishing the foundations of world peace and unity.

- Art

Dear Arthra,

Thank you for your kind reply. I have only perused Bahai and I will give it a good look see. Can you tell me if it contains any beliefs that Christianity, Islam and Judaism do NOT contain? I know it is different or no one would have bothered to create it. But my question is: What makes it any different from any other world religion other than beliefs that it espouses that the others do not?

Peace and love,
Pilgram

[arthra]

Dear Arthra,

Thank you for your kind reply. I have only perused Bahai and I will give it a good look see. Can you tell me if it contains any beliefs that Christianity, Islam and Judaism do NOT contain? I know it is different or no one would have bothered to create it. But my question is: What makes it any different from any other world religion other than beliefs that it espouses that the others do not?

Peace and love,
Pilgram

Reply:

Your question:

"What makes it any different from any other world religion other than beliefs that it espouses that the others do not"?

There is a central core of beliefs that we share with earlier dispensations...

The difference in my opinion is that the Baha'i Faith relates to issues facing humanity today... So our principles relate to current problems like war, racism, class prejudice and sexism in a much more specific way and we have a "blue print" or plan based on our principles that was revealed by Baha'u'llah well over a hundred years ago!

Baha'is accept that there needs to be a world government based on a parliamentary and federal system and a world court to enforce the laws.

We believe a world currency and agreed upon auxiliary language for the peoples of the earth are also needed.

Baha'is believe in recognizing the oneness of humanity and abolishing race prejudice.

We support reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty through a fair graduated income tax as well as profit sharing and providing universal education for children everywhere.

Further we support recognizing the full equality of men and women by seeing that women receive as good an education as men and that they have equal employment opportunity....

Some countries have already adopted some of these principles and Baha'is are encouragng the adoption of more of these principles all the time.

Most people who lived a hundred years ago would have dismissed these principles as utopian and impractical, but today, thanks be to God, they are being taken seriously.

So a very strong commitment to ending inequality, prejudice and racism forms a major part of Baha'i life....

We also unlike other religions accept the divine origin of other faiths and we recognize earlier scriptures as being inspired.

At the same time there are also special laws and ordinances that Baha'is follow that are unique to the Baha'i Faith.

There's not much space here to go into that here, but Baha'is have a unique calendar and observe their own Holy Days. We also have an elective administrative order from the local level to the international level and we have no ordained clergy or priests.

So these are I think some of the unique characteristics of the Baha'i Faith.

- Art

[Susma Rio Sep]

If I were to start life again and start without any religion, but like a Martian (and assuming that Martians don't practice any religions whatever) observing the numerosity and diversity of religions on earth, I think I would go for Baha'i. But I would not identify myself as an adherent of its founder; and I won't call myself a Baha'ist. I would just give the Baha'i founder the credit for expounding some to me very good ideas for men to live and work together.

But right now I am a postgraduate Catholic, an autonomous religionist, more comfortable with the Christian God and His Son and Messenger, Jesus, all the time however reserving my freedom of choice in matters of beliefs and observances.

Brian says not to proselytize here. Hope I am not proselytizing; but in my own vannity -- please excuse me, though -- I like to talk about my own religious ideas and to read others' who might be running parallel lines to mine in their religious ideas and practices or devotions.

A kind of comfort in number? But then didn't someone who was a big success in money-making tell us: There's a sucker born every minute?


Susma Rio Sep

[Pilgram]

Greetings to All,

I appreciate everyone's love for their concept of god and it is understandable that many are overflowing with that love and so can't help but share with me their favorite dogma of their favorite religions.

Please don't think me harsh, but you are not answering my question. You have done a remarkable job of answering questions I have not asked.

My question is easy. Perhaps the answer is too difficult to know.

I am interested in ONLY the agreed upon beliefs (dogma) of the major religions of the world. I am looking for a systematic study (if one exists) that clearly shows what dogma is AGREED upon by ALL major religions. For example, I would think that if such a study has been conducted, that it would show that all major religions believe in peace. Perhaps the Church of Satan would not, but that is why I said "major religions." I would expect to find that all major religions believe in tolerance and love, mercy and justice and on and on like that.

I am not interested in knowing which prophet or incarnation of god is most revered since that is something that would DIFFER from religion to religion.

So again: Does anyone know of a scholarly systematic study of the major world religions showing the AGREED upon beliefs?

Perhaps someone could suggest a different forum within this website that may be read by those in a better position to answer my question? If anyone knows where that forum might be, please offer your suggestions.

Thanks to All and Peace and Love,
Pilgram

[arthra]

Pilgram wrote:

My question is easy. Perhaps the answer is too difficult to know.

I am interested in ONLY the agreed upon beliefs (dogma) of the major religions of the world. I am looking for a systematic study (if one exists) that clearly shows what dogma is AGREED upon by ALL major religions.

My reply:

Well Pilgram I'm not aware of a single academic study that "shows what dogma is AGREED upon by ALL major religions."

Baha'is believe there is a single spiritual Source of the major religions but some of the "dogmas" that have grown up around the original teachings are we believe man-made and there are historical and cultural reasons for this sometimes.

There was a World Parliament of Religions that meet around 1993 that might have contributed more in this area...It was am anniversary meeting of the original meeting in 1893 at the Chicago World's Fair where the Baha'i Faith was first mentioned in America I believe.

There are very well informed writers though that have shown how similar religions and mythological traditions are and off hand i would say Joseph Campbell has done this remarkably well.

Geoffrey Parrinder is another author and i would suggest his "Avatar and Incarnation, The Divine in Human Form in the World's Religions". He does an excellent job I think except that he overlooked the Baha'i concept of the Manifestation of God.

I think Raimundo Pannikkar should be mentioned. He is Professor of Religious Studies at UC Santa Barbara and has written extensively comparing Christian and Hindu belief systems.

Louis Massignon has also been known for his "transcultural sympathy" and has led the way in establishing dialogue between Moslems and Christians.

There are also I'm sure other authors, but these stand out in my mind.

- Art

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Pilgram

So again: Does anyone know of a scholarly systematic study of the major world religions showing the AGREED upon beliefs?

I'm not sure of any actual scholastic works - perhaps another member can answer (to be honest, you may be better off asking more precisely on the Comparative Studies board here, rather than in the introductions board).

My personal observation is that you can get major religious and spiritual beliefs to agree on only two principles in majority (and not all subscribe to these):

1/ That there is a greater Divinity at work in the Universe
2/ That compassion is the way of being (ie, the Golden Rule of the philosophers - "Do unto others as you would have done to yourself").

I believe we may have touched upon that issue implictly on the thread The Twin Pillars of Wisdom and this was further referenced from a Christian perspective in the thread The Two Commandments.

Hope that begins to help - but like I say, probably best to post explicitly faith/belief orientated questions on the other boards here, where they are more likely to be noticed by a fuller range of members.

[Pilgram]

Thank you, arthra and Brian. I will try the other forum approach.

Love and peace,
Pilgram

[Pilgram]

Greetings Friend Vajradhara,

You say:

other than the God bit... i'm in complete agreement with you...

I do not know what you mean by the "God bit"? I would be interested in your meaning. If you think I have any hard and fast beliefs about GOD, I don't. What I have are only thoughts, ideas, hopes and "working theories." I believe there is a GOD but I don't go any farther with attempting to describe or limit GOD. I have no idea what, if any, things GOD wants us to do or not do.

To keep things simple for myself, I try to equate GOD as, at least, GOODNESS, TRUTH, BEAUTY, LOVE, JUSTICE, PEACE, COMPASSION, and whatever other related virtues one cares to include. I have no idea whether GOD even cares about what we eat, drink, inject, inhale, suck, lick, smell ... you get the picture.

What, if any, thoughts do you have about GOD? If you care to share these with me please keep them simple. I'm a simple man.

Love and Peace,
Pilgram

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Pilgram,

thank you for the post

Originally Posted by Pilgram

Greetings Friend Vajradhara,

You say:


I do not know what you mean by the "God bit"? I would be interested in your meaning. If you think I have any hard and fast beliefs about GOD, I don't. What I have are only thoughts, ideas, hopes and "working theories." I believe there is a GOD but I don't go any farther with attempting to describe or limit GOD. I have no idea what, if any, things GOD wants us to do or not do.

oh... i meant this bit....

"It is my belief that GOD and the many prophets and teachers who have been inspired by GOD, would want fewer committees and theological studies, debates and degrees and more DOING of the work of the Spirit. But until we put aside our differences, we will have a lot less time and energy to help people who really need help."

and, i meant to indicate, that other than this paragraph, i agree with your posting.

if you'd like... we can discuss God, god and all that sort of thing... though it would probably be more appropriate in the Comparative Studies forum, don't you think?

[Pilgram]

Greetings Vajradhara,



You write:

you'd like... we can discuss God, god and all that sort of thing... though it would probably be more appropriate in the Comparative Studies forum, don't you think?

I am new to discussions at websites. I will attempt to continue my thoughts at the suggested Comp. St. forum.

Thank you for your suggestion

Peace and Love,
Pilgram

[I, Brian]

The comparative studies board is just a sub-area of this forum - it is simply a recommended place for discussion because there are a lot of members who do not usually check through the Introductions board.