Questions - Page 3

Quahom1 · 10-11-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Well, I am referring to worshipping the invisible God as opposed to the man he incarnated as. Isn't there somewhere where Jesus says that people shouldn't worship him, but the Father instead?

Edit: The only other human in Christendom that is supposedly an incarnation or manifestation of God is Moses, but he had to be awakened first, sort of like how Jesus was baptized. Presumably the difference between them was that Moses was not born perfect, and Jesus was...or something.

Jesus did not encourage worship prior to His crucifiction (while He was in Human form), because He had put away His Godhead for a time (absolute authority over all). After His resurrection, He was worshipped and it was expected.

Never heard of Moses being a manifestation of God.

BlaznFattyz · 10-11-2006, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

...Isn't there somewhere where Jesus says that people shouldn't worship him, but the Father instead?

No. All knees will bow to Jesus. There is no greater name. if you honor the son, you honor the father.

moseslmpg · 10-11-2006, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Never heard of Moses being a manifestation of God.

Yeah, that's the problem. That little tidbit has fallen between the cracks even in Judaism, and there is no reason to even consider it in Christianity.

Faithfulservant · 10-11-2006, 12:44 PM

hmm Jesus has been worshipped since birth

saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him."

I dont see anywhere where Jesus says not to worship Him...

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

He doesnt say not to worship him in this one either...Just that the Father will be worshipped by true believers.

Can someone show me a scripture saying that Jesus says not to worship Him?

Dor · 10-11-2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Yeah, that's the problem. That little tidbit has fallen between the cracks even in Judaism, and there is no reason to even consider it in Christianity.

Thats a new one to me also. Moses was a man not a manifestation of God. He just happened to deal with the pre-incarnate Son.

Faithfulservant · 10-11-2006, 12:51 PM

Moses was imperfect and he sinned.. He cannot be a manifestation of God.

"The first 40 years of his life Moses thought he was somebody.. the second 40 years he realized he was nobody.. the third 40 God showed Moses what He could do with a nobody." -Pastor Leo Giovinetti

I love that.. Im a nobody.

moseslmpg · 10-11-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Can someone show me a scripture saying that Jesus says not to worship Him?

No, I can't. But I just don't remember him ever asking them to worship him as Jesus the man. I had always understood it as you worship God the Father, and the Son merely died for your sins...even though they are the same. It's not important anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Thats a new one to me also. Moses was a man not a manifestation of God. He just happened to deal with the pre-incarnate Son.

OK, he was a manifestation of YHVH, not God. Like I said, this is unknown to many Jewish people as well, so I'm not saying you have to believe in it or even rationalize it. It's not important in Christianity, it is in Judaism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Moses was imperfect and he sinned.. He cannot be a manifestation of God.

Since when does God have to manifest as a perfect being? I was under the impression that Jesus was so special because he was a perfect being, but to limit God to manifesting as one type of person is wrong, isn't it?

There are just a few things that didn't carry over from Judaism to Christianity, but they are probably still present in the Old Testament. Some of them rely on Hebrew though, so they will remain hidden to most people (assuming most people that read the Bible are not scholars of Hebrew).

Dor · 10-11-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

OK, he was a manifestation of YHVH, not God. Like I said, this is unknown to many Jewish people as well, so I'm not saying you have to believe in it or even rationalize it.

I would like to see any proof of this anywhere at all.

taijasi · 10-11-2006, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Can someone show me a scripture saying that Jesus says not to worship Him?

Witness:

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Mark 10:17-18)

You asked, you receive.

Thomas · 10-11-2006, 07:21 PM

"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?"

Scripture, much as some might insist, is not a dead book, nor are its words dead words ... every utterance of Jesus is as alive and relevant today as it was then - His words and His actions are written in Eternity.

So the question He posed then He poses today, and always, of us all. It is a very relevant question. And so is the answer:

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Matthew 16:15-17

Thomas

BlaznFattyz · 10-11-2006, 07:38 PM

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Mark 10:17-18)

This scripture has nothing to do with not worshipping christ. This is a direct response to a man that was looking towards human perfection as something a man could achieve and heaven as something man could obtain by doing good things. In calling Christ, good master, it is the title of one would use to flatter another man in order to get an answer out of him that would be positive. however, responding back that there is no man that is good, puts the man in his place when he is looking towards humanity as a way to reach god, and not towards a loving spiritual relationship with god to reach god. had he known that this "good master" was jesus christ, he would most likely would have called him Lord, Christ Jesus, or messiah, and not been so smug. also those that are revealed that jesus is lord do it because christ has been revealed by god to them and that is a personal proclamation within ones heart to accept jesus as their personal saviour. and the truth is christ is good, because what the father does, christ does, and he that honors the son, honors the father--not for personal gain but for the glory of god. it is not by good works alone that we find ourselves in the good light of god but by loving god and all his creations thereby wanting to keep all his commandments not out of consequence, but out of love. for all fall short of the glory of god, but his by his grace that we are saved.

taijasi · 10-11-2006, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

had he known that this "good master" was jesus christ, he would most likely would have called him Lord, Christ Jesus, or messiah, and not been so smug. also those that are revealed that jesus is lord do it because christ has been revealed by god to them and that is a personal proclamation within ones heart to accept jesus as their personal saviour. and the truth is christ is good, because what the father does, christ does, and he that honors the son, honors the father--not for personal gain but for the glory of god. it is not by good works alone that we find ourselves in the good light of god but by loving god and all his creations thereby wanting to keep all his commandments not out of consequence, but out of love. for all fall short of the glory of god, but his by his grace that we are saved.

All agreed ... yet I believe if you look at this account, it is clear that this man did recognize Jesus, perhaps not as fully as you indicate, but as a Teacher, nonetheless. And yes, he sought the Kingdom of Heaven ... though very much so as an individual, for himself - and not so much for the sake of serving others. This is how so many seek it, and so I think Christ's response is always the same. He says:

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10)

It does help, I think, to recognize that Christ, the Son (2nd Aspect incarnate), is here pointing to ... derring to, the Father (1st Aspect). If the distinction were not important, Christ would not have pointed it out! And a few verses later, the Comforter is also referenced. Three Aspects ...

taijasi

Quahom1 · 10-11-2006, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

Yeah, that's the problem. That little tidbit has fallen between the cracks even in Judaism, and there is no reason to even consider it in Christianity.

A little evidence would be appreciated.

Faithfulservant · 10-11-2006, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taijasi

Witness:

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. (Mark 10:17-18)

You asked, you receive.

He wasnt saying not to worship Him.. He was declaring the Holy Goodness of the Father...Jesus taking on flesh was a man and a lesser being but He was still deserving of worship... next scripture please.

Faithfulservant · 10-11-2006, 10:33 PM

Quote:

No, I can't. But I just don't remember him ever asking them to worship him as Jesus the man. I had always understood it as you worship God the Father, and the Son merely died for your sins...even though they are the same. It's not important anyway.

He didnt ask it because He was trying to get people to know who He was... but when people finally learned they ALL worshipped Him.. He was humble and called Himself a servant to God because like I said above.. in the flesh as man He is lesser than the Father. The Father receives worship and glory from the worship and glory of Jesus Christ.. even when He was in the flesh.

Quote:

Since when does God have to manifest as a perfect being? I was under the impression that Jesus was so special because he was a perfect being, but to limit God to manifesting as one type of person is wrong, isn't it?

There are just a few things that didn't carry over from Judaism to Christianity, but they are probably still present in the Old Testament. Some of them rely on Hebrew though, so they will remain hidden to most people (assuming most people that read the Bible are not scholars of Hebrew).

God created evil along with Good.. of course He can do what He wanted to. But to insinuate that someone was God when God never said so is in violation of the 1 and 2nd commandments. Moses never declared Himself anything other than a man that screws up too much.
Are you a Scholar of Hebrew and Aramaic because I would certainly bet that the manuscripts that you have access to... men within the body of Christ have access to.. Some even study scripture as the Bereans did the shepherds that feed me are like this and Im betting that there many trips to Israel learning from Orthodox Jews are helpful in their studies. Never once have they ever suggested that Moses was a manifestation of God.. As a matter of fact if it was so.. why not announce at the transfiguration when Moses was there with Jesus and Elijah? There is only the Father Son and Spirit..

Matthew 17 has Jesus Moses Elijah the Father and the Spirit.. That says for itself I think.