Questions from a Doubting Christian - Page 2

InQuestion · 01-26-2005, 05:36 AM

PS - Yes, I have prayed that prayer. I made the decision for my self about 8 years ago. It did change my outlook in a positive way and I believed I saw God in a lot of things.

Marsh · 01-26-2005, 07:07 AM

Brrrrrrrrrr! Is it getting chilly in here, or is it just me?

Bandit · 01-26-2005, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InQuestion

Bandit - thank you for your reply. I appreciate your insight.

Please do not take my questions the wrong way. I have not lost all faith, but I am in need people who are strong in their faith so I can have a meaningful discussion about some difficult questions. This is just one step in the journey.

Regarding your 2 questions:
1)What type of God (or anyone) would want to spend eternity with a bunch of people around him that are full of hate and abuse and blasphemey, that do not love him, or care anything about him?

2)What kind of God would He be if he FORCED himself on us and made us serve him with whips and chains???

-I guess I have to question why did God bother with creation of man in the first place? If all he wanted was people to love him through their own free will (and not to be with those who don't chose him though free will), then doesn't that make God an Egotist? What purpose could our coming to be with God through our own free will serve? Does it make God happy? If so, then in order for him to be happy he is creating and then condeming a large portion of the human race to hell...right?

- Which question do I want to ask of you? Let's pick a new/related one. What happens to all the people who do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God (either by choice or lack of awarness of Christianity)?

I know what you are going through. I Guess I forget sometimes because my walk has been so long that there is just no room for doubt any more. For me, prayer (communication) and the Word has made me strong. I really dont know how people are getting by without it.

I don't know what happens to the people who do not believe Jesus is the Son of God. Lack of awareness, I can't even say that for sure will be an option. I am not the judge and I can't answer it. Sorry but I cannot say. As far as I can see blaspheming God is the unforgivable sin.
I just see Jesus came to express the invisible God in his life so that we can SEE God. God raised him up so that we can SEE and have that hope that was promised to us.

I honestly dont believe we will ever see God in his fulness because He is too big. the only one we are going to see when we get there is Jesus. Another thing to keep in mind is, the older we get the more we see about these things and they are not the way they appear when we are young.

I dont have to worry about it and what others decide is not my call. I can only fight for myself and watch out for brothers and sisters who want in. There is good scripture for this, but I dont put it out unless someone asks for it.

Quote:

-I guess I have to question why did God bother with creation of man in the first place? If all he wanted was people to love him through their own free will (and not to be with those who don't chose him though free will), then doesn't that make God an Egotist? What purpose could our coming to be with God through our own free will serve? Does it make God happy? If so, then in order for him to be happy he is creating and then condeming a large portion of the human race to hell...right?

I do not see God as self centered or conceited. See, God cannot have children. He can only make and create. I see God more as lonely and only ASKING to be loved. It took me years to see that God is righteous and He is a just God and His ways are Just. I have had all the same questions you have.
Don't you want to be loved? Dont you want to love? I think you do

Quote:

What purpose could our coming to be with God through our own free will serve?

God has an eternal purpose IN us. We the people are His final resting place and He is our final resting place. Free Will is how I see the only way He can have children and that is by the spirit of adoption. And yes this makes God happy. The closer you get to Him, the more you begin to realize His ways and His purposes are right.

Quote:

If so, then in order for him to be happy he is creating and then condeming a large portion of the human race to hell...right?

I have a different view of Hell than the typical church way it is taught. Hell is the grave for the body and a place for departed souls. What happens there, I don't know.

. I do not believe He is a God of eternal punishment like so many say. What I see, is a second death, after the grave. At the most what I see is God ZAPS the ones who refuse to acknowledge Him out of existance. I cannot explain that or defend it.

But the loving God I know is not going to punish forever. Will there be a punishment? Probably something more like lonelines or shame. I mean, what happens if you put a bunch of criminals in a cell together? They pretty much kill each other.

God does not make anyone,to perish them to be happy.
Predestination, Soveriegnty and Free Will is a very difficult thing to see how
they all work together. It took me a very long time.
One day I was wondering what it would be like to be a spirit that does not know God. And all I could see was a spirit laying on the floor in a corner in a fetal postion with sad eyes staring at nothing, with no hope, no wisdom, no knowledge, just a dead thing. And I did not like it.

I know it APPEARS that God sends people to a bad place, but in all reality people make that choice for themselves.
So that is why I say, forget about hell and the bad people and keep our eyes on Jesus. Lets do the best we can here an now.

I hope that helps a little bit with reasoning and anytime brother just ask away. There are some good people around here who want to help.... that is why we stick together.

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope

Faithfulservant · 01-26-2005, 08:35 AM

This is a fun thread for me.. Did I say that I had the exact same questions that IQ had? I did. I was a doubting Thomas myself. I had even more questions than the ones listed. It was such a joy for me to have God answer each question for me. I would pray then open the bible and each question was eventually answered. Whats even more exciting to me is that he gives me answers to questions that I hadnt even had yet.

I needed to know if you prayed that prayer IQ because that tells me that you will be ok in your doubts and God will help you with them when his timing is right. I am having fun reading other peoples answers to these questions. Some I agree with and some I dont but it shows me how people think and I find it very interesting. I hope to read more.

God Bless

Virtual_Cliff · 01-26-2005, 01:38 PM

Why were we created? I'm just beginning to see that love and creation and creativity and truth are all different ways of seeing the same essence, and that essence is God. Creation is his nature and it continues for ever.

As for heaven and hell, please I implore you with all my heart, try not to think about it. Don't assume that you are "saved" - that is for God and God alone to say. As for others, that is between God and them. It is not for us to know. This isn't an Us and Them issue. God loves all of us equally.

For myself, if God were to descend into my living room and tell me in person that I was condemned to an eternity of punishment after my death with no reprieve, it would only make me more determined to love him more in the time that was left. This life is not about getting what you think you deserve, or winning or losing, it's about giving and sharing and wanting the best for everyone, it's about basking in the beauty of God's love. Isn't that enough?

Bandit · 01-26-2005, 05:27 PM

Sometimes I think what one may consider doubt is not really doubt, but rather questions and trying to understand the Creator and his ways better. I think that is a good thing because it shows a relationship there. It shows an open mind and a honest heart.

It does not make sense until a long time afterward through answers and Him revealing things to us.
Seek ye first what?
the Kingdom of God, then all these other things shall be added to you.

The wisdom and love of God is so complex, we can only gather such small portions of it, but enough to know.

It is a good thread.
We have only begun to scratch the surface.

lunamoth · 01-26-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh

Brrrrrrrrrr! Is it getting chilly in here, or is it just me?

Hey Marsh, well we can keep each other warm anyway!

cheers,
lunamoth

InQuestion · 01-27-2005, 03:10 AM

I find it interesting that a bunch of us can sit around having a nice discussion yet all have a different intrepretation of the truth. It is curious that we can all have these different intrepretation and disagree on some pretty big things (like heaven and hell) but we all call ourselves Christians.

One thing that I have difficulty with are the many contradictions in the bible and a lot of the passages that seem "out dated". I think we tend to glance over verses like: Deuteronomy 21:20-21, Lev 20:9, or Exodus 21:15 which talk of the punishment of children who disobey their parents. In Deuteronomy they take the child to the public square and stone him to death. Certinally none of us woud do this to our own child, yet there it is in the Bible. Is that the truth? Is that what we should do? I think not.

It begs the question: If we can not follow the Bible to in an exact manner - that we must guess at what is the truth, and what is not truth - then who is to say which parts are the truth? Do we all agree? I think not. Therefore, the whole Bible is subject to intrepretation. Which might explain the range of differences we see in this room when explaining our beliefs.

But if we can't believe everything, then should we believe anything?

Lastly, many have asked about my statement of God fighting Satan in the bible. I have not yet been able to pin down the verse I h
ave been thinking of, but will keep searching. In the meantime, I have identified a few that show God's limited powers. Here is one such example
Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah and he drove out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron.

IQ

Bandit · 01-27-2005, 05:21 AM

Quote:

But if we can't believe everything, then should we believe anything?

I still believe everything. I do agree so much that the scripture is open for interpretation. And that it is ok to conclude "I JUST DONT KNOW" and leave it open for a future day when it will be shown to us.
But the reasoning abilities we have are tremendous when we work together.

Quote:

It begs the question: If we can not follow the Bible to in an exact manner - that we must guess at what is the truth, and what is not truth - then who is to say which parts are the truth? Do we all agree? I think not. Therefore, the whole Bible is subject to intrepretation. Which might explain the range of differences we see in this room when explaining our beliefs.

I went through this one about 5 years ago. So I put the bible to the test too. I found it to be at least 96% accurate as to the way it was original written. The dead sea scrolls proved this too. Yet I do not find any contradictions. Even if someone were to try and change it a little, they did not change it enough to change the whole big picture of what is really going on.

We have over 4000 years of History, wisdom and knowledge in that one book and you can bet it was a great challenge for man to keep it together. Its not the same as writing a book today and pumping it out of the web onto paper. We are talking leather and stone. LOL and no computers.
The bible aint going anywhere. It is here to stay.

Science and archeologists are even using it.

I look at those old bible days and shake my head too. Then I look at our own American Heritage with the Indians, slavery, hanging men, burning people alive, the early years of intense and brutal child labor etc. Then the Holocaust with Hitler and now Iraq,,, it is not pretty.

It is only in the last century that things like that have calmed down some. Man is barbaric.

A lot of those old laws we see in the OT are not Gods laws, they were mans laws.

These are the limitations that I see that God has.
He cannot lie. He cannot die. He cannot fail. He cannot be tempted. He cannot become finite matter or be placed in a time capsule.
There might be more, but those are the ones I know.

Quote:

Judges 1:19 And the LORD was with Judah and he drove out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had chariots of iron.

We have to remember here that God made the 'iron' that the chariots were made out of.

How are you seeing the Lord in this verse IQ?

Faithfulservant · 01-27-2005, 07:08 AM

The Spirit convicts us.. I think that we do wrong to squabble over interpretations.. We are told to go out and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not told to argue the bible and use it as a weapon. When I read the OT I am studying the history of Israel, Gods chosen people. Gods dealings with Israel has been a main factor in the OT. I am in no way applying the first 5 books to my life because its not about me in this present day. I do read the wisdom books and prophecy books because I do believe that most do apply to me as well as the nation of Israel. As a new Christian what should they focus on? The NT right? When you start digging into the OT if you do not understand the purpose of it how can you even begin to understand it in contrast to the NT. I believe that if your reading the OT and you become unsure and begin to doubt things wouldnt it be a good idea to go back to the NT for a bit and find comfort in the words of Jesus Christ or his apostles?

Virtual_Cliff · 01-27-2005, 01:55 PM

Hey, who's squabbling? There's a difference between squabbling and learning from each other. God is just too big for any of us to understand completely. That's why this forum is so good - it enables us to understand in new ways.

Yes the bible will always be open to interpretation. The trouble is, its now so old that the vocabulary of concepts we use to model our world today is very different from the way in which Moses for example saw things. There is no easy translation. But that needn't lead to arguement.

It might say God couldn't move the iron chariots when it means the soldiers of Israel couldn't do it. This was just their way of expressing it. A hundred years ago a sailor might have said "God gave us favourable winds", now they say they were lucky with the wind, but the essential concept is the same. Remember how the Victorians assumed that every massacre they committed was done in the name of God?

Should we stone our children? I think not. Is that a loving way to behave? This is the question we should be asking. Our life is our responsibility. We can't blame the Bible for our mistakes, however convenient that may sometimes seem.

Basstian · 01-27-2005, 10:01 PM

Very Nice post takes me back to the very infancy of my own faith all the why's whats can shake a person. Some would rather you not ask but just continue blindly following I am glad to see that God has inspired you to seek the truth
I see lots of answers from people and think they have done a good job answering and offering ideas. I would like to offer mine just for the mix.

A The Flood issue. Genisis 6:5 And God saw the Wicked ness of man was great on the earth and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually and it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth
and it greived him at his heart.
God felt grief pain anguish I dont take this verse lightly My StepDad recently passed after a long illness on machines that were keeping him alive in the phyisical but not in the way anyone consideres life my heartaches with the decision we had to make to remove life support and let him pass I loved him so much. I cant imagine the absolute grief the Loving God we serve must have felt having to make this choice. He was fortunate enough though to be able to scour the earth and find one small spark of good just that one little man and his family was enough to hope for a better tommorrow. God know if my family would have seen one little spark in my dad we would have kept hope in his life and still be praying ove him today. I feel sorry for what God had to go through at this time I cannot even imagine the pain.

B I will keep this brief I believe God did make man right the first time around it was all perfect before we chose the knowledge of both good and evil. God already knew evil knew its outcome knew what it brought I believe He Hoped we would not chose it.

2 The Bible doesn't contradict its self here I have several children diferent types of personalities. One I shows a deep respect and daily does the things I see as good with no rules ever spoken. The other is a constant "son you have to do this, stay out of that etc. etc. etc." It does come down to faith in Jesus but one child can have faith and be righteous with no rules Another will build faith thru Following the rules. How do you feel closest to God what makes you feel faithful?
3 Jesus last word are very dificult and hard to build doctrine off of the word used for forsaken in greek has many different meanings. For instance it also means remain over My God My God wilt thou remain over me. Calling on God to stay with Him in this time of distress. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS WHAT HE SAID but simply saying it is one of those things I can wait to ask Him

I do know there is a similiar line in a hebrew psalm and he could have been quoting scripture.
4 It is completely possible to live under the law and survive just not many willing to be that devoted Going Back to the Story of Abraham we see an example of love and obedience. Abraham when tested showed that he was willing to sacrifice his most precious thing his son. You think how hard that would be to gather sticks and build an alter with your son Know it is his life that would be taken on it, all for a show of true love. Awesome, a father willing to sacrifice a son willing to give his life. Forever setting the standard that know one would doubt the depth of that love. God stopped abraham just short and provided a sacrifice for him. God did not stop short when proving his love for us He Gave His Son and His Son was willing, taking away all doubt of His love for mankind.

Gods mercy is beyond our ability to measure I have no right even thru study of the Bible to say who will be saved and who wont. To do so puts me in a very dangerous place I dont want to be.
Every man is supposed to work out his own salvation it cant be purchased we know that I struggle every day to answer questions in my life some of the same you have. I myself try to shake off the doubt and go back to the simple Do I love God and Does He love me . I dont dare put a limit on what God is able to do. The Bible in some spots seems to do this I know (as far as who will be saved). But I as of yet read nothing that Gives me the right.

5 I am not sure God battles satan like we would define battle If he did (or if he does) I would not want to buy tickets to that fight one round over before the bell stops ringing. He has a plan I am willing to trust Him to be right.
I cannot answer this question anyway that seems right it is beyond my ability but would like to share a verse that further adds to the question
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for Himself :
yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
I as of yet have no Idea how to put that verse into the context of what I believe. Word for Word it changes the whole concept of free will ?

6 Man is perfect we are in the image of God we have the Knowledge of Good and evil. It seems we just dont know how to deal with that knowledge maybe that is what this little thing we call life is teaching us

7 There could be any of 100 reasons or more for the time of when and why the gospels were written. One thing I would like to point out tho is the scripture we are instructed to study to learn of God was not a letter written to a young man named Timothy or a letter written to a group of believers in Corinth. This doesnt mean not to study the Gospels and use them as a guide and it also doesnt mean that if you find other writings that edify your heart that they are not inspired. I believe the closer you draw to God the easier it will be to decearn what is truth and what is not.
The Jewish religion (I believe) by design did not recognise Jesus as the messiah
Muslims as I have been told Hold him in High regard but you would need to ask a muslim those details

8 This was done in error was wrong and I believe

9 There is no clear answer as to why it started when it Did I fell it was in part for the fulfilment of prophecy second all the players had to be in place for everything to come to pass. Second His home town he could preform miricales in but didnt " A prophet is without honor in his home town" my family and friends are often the hardest to preach to or convince of new things. They see me as a carpenter (Yes I am a Carpenter) not a scholar and have little respect for my beliefs.

10 This is a question that I am asking myself another one is why now when we have our own bible and a world of information at our finger tips do we blindly follow traditions of men. I cant say the motive of creating feast days that line up with pagen holidays just to "convert" people. I cant see changing the word of God just so it sounds more politicly correct as being anything other than wrong. Martin Luther took a stand against such things but stopped way short for what reason I dont know. Reform is needed I believe there is truth out there but because of the choices made in the past by leaders with questionable intent we have to search for it ourselves.
Maybe that too is part of Gods plan

11 I have a problem defining faith as the absence of truth ?
An old man once explained faith to me like this ... He asked me to sit in a chair I did: then he asked if I had given thought as to how the chair was built I of course hadnt. I sit down having complete faith that it would support me
That to me is human nature to have faith first to check the facts later and then only if it is something we deem important enough

Peace

Bandit · 01-28-2005, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

Hey, who's squabbling? There's a difference between squabbling and learning from each other. God is just too big for any of us to understand completely. That's why this forum is so good - it enables us to understand in new ways.

Yes the bible will always be open to interpretation. The trouble is, its now so old that the vocabulary of concepts we use to model our world today is very different from the way in which Moses for example saw things. There is no easy translation. But that needn't lead to arguement.

It might say God couldn't move the iron chariots when it means the soldiers of Israel couldn't do it. This was just their way of expressing it. A hundred years ago a sailor might have said "God gave us favourable winds", now they say they were lucky with the wind, but the essential concept is the same. Remember how the Victorians assumed that every massacre they committed was done in the name of God?

Should we stone our children? I think not. Is that a loving way to behave? This is the question we should be asking. Our life is our responsibility. We can't blame the Bible for our mistakes, however convenient that may sometimes seem.

Hey Virtual_Cliff, you have a talent for putting things into perspective in words and making it clearer. That is awesome. Keep using it for the Lord, because I have been blessed by it.

Virtual_Cliff · 01-28-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

Hey Virtual_Cliff, you have a talent for putting things into perspective in words and making it clearer. That is awesome. Keep using it for the Lord, because I have been blessed by it.

Thanks Bandit, and thanks Brian and everyone on this forum. In the couple of months I've been a member, my thinking has been brought into focus by the questions and challenges. As a result my faith is richer and stronger than ever. God bless.
VC

FriendRob · 01-28-2005, 04:33 PM

I think the answer to many of your questions, IQ, boils down to the fact that what we call "The Bible" was in fact many different books, written by many different people, in many different times and places. Therefore, they reflect very different ideas about what God is like and how he works in the world. I suggest you try reading one of Bishop Spong's books.

When people forget this, they can get hung up on what is the "correct" interpretation of the Bible. They argue, and declare each other heretics because the others have the wrong interpretation. By picking out particular verses, you can support pretty much any interpretation you like. It pays to remember that the Bible was used as an argument in favor of slavery.

How do we even know what books belong in the Bible? Different Christians in different times have used different sets of books. Martin Luther in the 16th century threw out some of the books he considered "apocryphal".

I think the only answer is to be guided by (what Quakers call) the Light Within.