real Islam

kenshin · 02-11-2012, 08:49 AM

Peace be upon you
there are some difficulties in understanding the definition of a religion and Islam is not out of this , I think.
it is said to be a muslim is to bear witness (Shahadatein) to the prophecy of Muhammad (pbuh) and the unity of God.
but there is another usage for the word "Islam"

"Abraham enjoined this] creed [upon his children, and] so did [Jacob,] saying :" My children! Allah has indeed chosen this religion for you; so never die except as Muslim"

we know that Islam, as we understand it, is a special religion. and Abraham and his sons were before prophet Muhammad, so how would Quran claim that they were muslims ?

the answer, as many scholars believe, is that
"Indeed, with Allah religion is Islam" 3:19

God has only one religion and that is nothing else than believing in the truth and following it both practically and theoretically. what we call it today "Islam" is the last emanation of the same truth that all prophet believed in.
it means Christianity and Judaism are also the emanation of the same reality but in earlier times.

NiceCupOfTea · 02-11-2012, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshin

Peace be upon you
there are some difficulties in understanding the definition of a religion and Islam is not out of this , I think.
it is said to be a muslim is to bear witness (Shahadatein) to the prophecy of Muhammad (pbuh) and the unity of God.
but there is another usage for the word "Islam"

"Abraham enjoined this] creed [upon his children, and] so did [Jacob,] saying :" My children! Allah has indeed chosen this religion for you; so never die except as Muslim"

we know that Islam, as we understand it, is a special religion. and Abraham and his sons were before prophet Muhammad, so how would Quran claim that they were muslims ?

the answer, as many scholars believe, is that
"Indeed, with Allah religion is Islam" 3:19

God has only one religion and that is nothing else than believing in the truth and following it both practically and theoretically. what we call it today "Islam" is the last emanation of the same truth that all prophet believed in.
it means Christianity and Judaism are also the emanation of the same reality but in earlier times.

Abraham and his sons were Jews not Muslims.

And why should this thing you call God have religion and why must there be only one ?

kenshin · 02-11-2012, 11:47 AM

1 - Abraham and his sons
they couldn't be jews for they lived before judaism. anyway this wasn't the point.
what I mentioned was from the Quran. and it was to show what the Quran says about "Islam" and "Muslim"
the best way to define "Islam" is to seek help from the Quran, the book of Islam.

2 - God and one religion
it is impossible for one source to have two complete different religions. what we do as religious acts have real effects on our soul and these effects are revealed to us through religions for we can't fully find out the effect of each deed.

3 - God and religion
humans do change from one state to another. the perfection is a way which just could be understood ,in it full details, by revelation. human mind can find some steps of perfection but not all.

NiceCupOfTea · 02-11-2012, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshin

1 - Abraham and his sons
they couldn't be jews for they lived before judaism. anyway this wasn't the point.

nonsense

Quote:

what I mentioned was from the Quran. and it was to show what the Quran says about "Islam" and "Muslim"
the best way to define "Islam" is to seek help from the Quran, the book of Islam.

2 - God and one religion
it is impossible for one source to have two complete different religions. what we do as religious acts have real effects on our soul and these effects are revealed to us through religions for we can't fully find out the effect of each deed.

why is it impossible ?

and why would anyone need anything as vile as religion anyway, religion is a curse upon all mankind.

Quote:

3 - God and religion
humans do change from one state to another. the perfection is a way which just could be understood ,in it full details, by revelation. human mind can find some steps of perfection but not all.

when you say humans do not change from one state, can you clarify this are u talking about from one country to another or about something else.

perfection is here right now, its always here.

kenshin · 02-11-2012, 12:16 PM

1 - nonsense
it is not clear. if you define judaism = the religion after the old testament, Abraham and Noah and Adam couldn't be jews. anyway you can change the definition.

2 -vile
if you don't accept religions as sacred sources of guidance then this discussion would be out of place. it was not meant to prove religion as the sacred path.

3 - perfection
"sate of beings" and sorry if it was not clear.
perfection is here and we all have some portion of perfection but the question is how to increase it.

4 - real effects
if you cut your finger by a knife I would call this result " the real effect of your deed."
we can find out these effects in material word but not the spiritual one.
indeed our actions have their effect on our spirit ( or say soul ) but we don't know how and what.
the religion is here to show us the way and the results of our actions. our sins cut and wound our souls as the knife does for the body.

NiceCupOfTea · 02-11-2012, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshin

1 - nonsense
it is not clear. if you define judaism = the religion after the old testament, Abraham and Noah and Adam couldn't be jews. anyway you can change the definition.

they were Jews what we know about these people is from Jewish History. They most certainly were not Muslims.

Quote:

2 -vile
if you don't accept religions as sacred sources of guidance then this discussion would be out of place. it was not meant to prove religion as the sacred path.

sorry if i seem harsh, but religion is all about power of one man over another or many.

Quote:

3 - perfection
"sate of beings" and sorry if it was not clear.
perfection is here and we all have some portion of perfection but the question is how to increase it.

there is nothing you can do to make it more or less perfect, it simply is.

Quote:

4 - real effects
if you cut your finger by a knife I would call this result " the real effect of your deed."
we can find out these effects in material word but not the spiritual one.

why cant you find out about these effects in the spiritual realms, people journey there all time, its not that difficult.

Quote:

indeed our actions have their effect on our spirit ( or say soul ) but we don't know how and what.
the religion is here to show us the way and the results of our actions. our sins cut and wound our souls as the knife does for the body.

religion is bondage, if you want to be free throw all the crap away including your religion.

kenshin · 02-11-2012, 06:51 PM

thanks for replying

1 - Abraham
if we know about them from jewish source, it wouldn't mean that they were jewish! we know many things about animals from scientific source, does it mean that animals are scientists ?

Jewish source talked about them but just as a fact about the past time.
and I translated being muslim as being obedient to God's orders and that's what all believers do!
all the point of my first post was this :"All believers who truly obey God's order are muslims."

2 - realm
I never had any journey to the spiritual realm as clear as understanding what I should do in this world!
and spiritual realm is not something separated from this world.
at least I need to know how to see that realm but how should I know?

3 - religion
I really don't think that true instruction of God is bondage! the real bondage is the wrong understanding of them! I practice these orders and I don't feel like being in bondage.
I want to be free from everything even my limits! even after throwing away the religion, how should I throw away my limits ?

NiceCupOfTea · 02-11-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshin

thanks for replying

1 - Abraham
if we know about them from jewish source, it wouldn't mean that they were jewish! we know many things about animals from scientific source, does it mean that animals are scientists ?

Jewish source talked about them but just as a fact about the past time.
and I translated being muslim as being obedient to God's orders and that's what all believers do!
all the point of my first post was this :"All believers who truly obey God's order are muslims."

Abraham was a Jew, at least thats what I got from reading the Bible. But reading up again seems he was father the the Jewish Nation and possible to the Arab as well, father of many.

Muslims are those who follow the Quran and Mohamed, that does not include Abraham. The notion that all true believers are Muslims is deeply insulting to just about everyone apart from Muslims.

Quote:

2 - realm
I never had any journey to the spiritual realm as clear as understanding what I should do in this world!
and spiritual realm is not something separated from this world.
at least I need to know how to see that realm but how should I know?

in the Bible and amongst shamanism and witchcraft dreams and visions are common, many people journey to the spiritual realms, some call it astral projection its not that hard, you have probably already done so without realising.

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3 - religion
I really don't think that true instruction of God is bondage! the real bondage is the wrong understanding of them! I practice these orders and I don't feel like being in bondage.
I want to be free from everything even my limits! even after throwing away the religion, how should I throw away my limits ?

Religion to me is bondage and slavery all those rules and rituals priests imans and pastors.

I want to be free, but i think true freedom comes from transcending our small selves, once we can do that then the need to transcend your limits becomes meaningless.

Thats my thoughts on the matter, but i dont take them to seriously.

kenshin · 02-12-2012, 04:01 PM

thanks
I didn't say "Only muslims are believers" but "All believers are muslims"
muslim = "obedient to the truth"
aren't true believers obedient to the truth ? isn't a pious christian obedient to the truth ?
as I said, all believers are! so all believers are muslim in this context.
also there is another usage for this word that I didn't mean and I think that's what you are pointing at.
followers of Muhammad (pbuh) are called muslims but in this context just those of them who really are obedient to the truth are muslims

radarmark · 02-13-2012, 01:33 PM

Kenshin. Unfortunately, the vast majority of both Sunni and Shia use the term a little more restrictively (see the persecution of Bahais and Sikhs). In theory, at the highest level, you are correct... but "obedient to the truth" must be seen as extremely broad and inclusive. I believe that all founders of all religions (or nearly all) expeienced the same phenomena, "the one religion". But their teachings must be interpreted... and there are good and bad interpretations. Most Religions (the external trappings) are not true to their root (the experience of "the one religion"). Most Religious people do not want this truth (or rather path of seeking), they want some dogma or "absolutist truth" which, IMHO, does not exist.

kenshin · 02-13-2012, 04:03 PM

thanks mark
what majority of muslims believe is not important because the criterion of the truth is not the number of people

I use Quranic concepts and they should believe in it, like it or not. and of course I don't bring this discussion out of my mind without checking what muslims scholars have said about it.
Some great scholars believe as I described and they have different ideas on the matter of Salvation.
indeed they believe that being a true believer is nothing than being obedient to what you really think is the truth. even if you are wrong the God will teach you after death.

disciple · 02-20-2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenshin

what we call today "Islam" is the last emanation of the same truth that all prophet believed in.
it means Christianity and Judaism are also the emanation of the same reality but in earlier times.

this is what i believe to be the truth.

however many christians and jews will resist this, because they feel like they are 'losing' something or that they are being 'taken over' by this new thing, which is actually just an (updated) version of the old thing.

windows 2000 doesnt mean windows 98 doesnt work anymore. or that you shouldnt use it.

NiceCupOfTea · 02-20-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disciple

this is what i believe to be the truth.

however many christians and jews will resist this, because they feel like they are 'losing' something or that they are being 'taken over' by this new thing, which is actually just an (updated) version of the old thing.

thats because they see islam differently to muslims.

Quote:

windows 2000 doesnt mean windows 98 doesnt work anymore. or that you shouldnt use it.

spirituality is not an os.

Amica · 02-24-2012, 02:32 PM

Qur'an talks about book(s) of Abraham. We see a story of Abraham in the Bible and the Qur'an, but the book of Abraham pbuh is lost. The truth is that anyone who submits to God is a believer. In qur'anic terms, this believer is called a Muslim. If you take out the non-islamic stereotypes of the term, you can easily see why Qur'an calls previous prophets and religious figures as Muslims.
The Qur'an only diffrentiates between these two groups of humans: believers and unbelievers. Who is a believer? We see from the Qur'an that a believer (one who submits fully to God) used to be Mary, Jesus, all the Prophets, a righteous king who existed long, long time ago, first humans, etc. So, Qur'an says that among other religious groups (e.g. Jews, Christians) there were believers, aka Muslims, during Prophet Muhammad's time. These people kept their religious identity, we are told, as Jews and Christians, but they were muslims--believers, the ones that submit their will to God. That is why, there is a verse in the Qur'an where it is said that mosques, monasteries, churches and synagogues are places where God is mentioned. What diffrentiates believers from the religious groups mentioned is their concept of God. And face it, many of us have unbelievers in our midsts. St. John talked about those who say they are Jews but are not, for they are synagogue of satan. Qur'an talks about those who say they are muslims but they are not. Etc. You get the picture.

Amica · 02-24-2012, 02:40 PM

And, Nice Cup of Tea, I think you-like many others -are stuck in the narrow definition of what a Muslim is. Perhaps many today's Muslims are like that as well.

The same is with the Holy Name Allah. Allah is Holy Name because: in the arabic language It can only be used in singular, and it has no gender. Unique to True God alone. Many Arab Christians and Jews refer to God as Allah. But in the West, when one hears the Holy Name, he thinks it is a "arab religion"'s God only. Arabs or any other group out there have no monopoly over God/Allah, just like they have no monopoly of saying who trully is a Muslim or not. It is up to God to decide.